First off, been riding for a few months now and LOVE it. Hell of a lot
funner than driving a car.

However, I could definitely use a reminder about cornering. When I took the
motorcycle safety course I was docked for this and never really followed up
on it. When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the outside and finish
on the inside or the other way around? I remember that I had it backwards
during class and for some reason (maybe because of the low speed involved)
doing it backwards didn't seem wrong so I blew off the instruction.

"Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:k6OdnSuO2ajtCSXanZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> First off, been riding for a few months now and LOVE it. Hell of a lot
> funner than driving a car.
>
> However, I could definitely use a reminder about cornering. When I took
> the motorcycle safety course I was docked for this and never really
> followed up on it. When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the
> outside and finish on the inside or the other way around? I remember that
> I had it backwards during class and for some reason (maybe because of the
> low speed involved) doing it backwards didn't seem wrong so I blew off the
> instruction.

I don't think I can put it in those terms. In general, use the largest
radius practical. Neutral throttle, neither slowing or accelerating, is best
for most street riding. This means having it in a gear appropriate for that
speed, usually 2nd gear for most bikes on suburban or urban intersections.

"Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote

>When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the outside and finish on the
>inside or the other way around?

Interesting question, especially the way you posed it.

If your cornering speed is "comfortable" and you can see past the apex, I
don't really think it makes much difference. If you are going for max.
speed, I'd say start and end outside.......making the maneuver as straight
as possible......again assuming you can see past the apex.

I suspect what you are referring to is "What kind of cornering habit should
you have to maximize your chances of survival if something suddenly changes
in the middle" and I don't know.
Will be interested to see the answers.

"Ken Abrams" <harvest_this@scum.suckers> wrote in message
news51uj.847$pl4.268@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net. ..
>
> "Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote
>
>>When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the outside and finish on the
>>inside or the other way around?
>
> Interesting question, especially the way you posed it.
>
> If your cornering speed is "comfortable" and you can see past the apex, I
> don't really think it makes much difference. If you are going for max.
> speed, I'd say start and end outside.......making the maneuver as straight
> as possible......again assuming you can see past the apex.
>
> I suspect what you are referring to is "What kind of cornering habit
> should you have to maximize your chances of survival if something suddenly
> changes in the middle" and I don't know.
> Will be interested to see the answers.
>

Maybe that's part of the issue at hand. It was mentioned pointedly at the
class, and I assume they were referring to blind inside corners, but the
test course was obviously not blind and I found that I did what worked for
me. It made me wonder if it mattered at all or whether, again, the slow
speeds masked the benefits. I figure now is my most dangerous time, having
had a few months practice and feeling confident - perhaps it be a good time
to squash something like this early so I don't get a bad habit. Cornering
is the largest source of motorcycle fatalities in Washington State (last I
looked at least).

In article <k6OdnSuO2ajtCSXanZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:

> First off, been riding for a few months now and LOVE it. Hell of a lot
> funner than driving a car.
>
> However, I could definitely use a reminder about cornering. When I took the
> motorcycle safety course I was docked for this and never really followed up
> on it. When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the outside and finish
> on the inside or the other way around? I remember that I had it backwards
> during class and for some reason (maybe because of the low speed involved)
> doing it backwards didn't seem wrong so I blew off the instruction.

The general wisdom is to start the corner on the outside, kiss the
inside of the turn a bit late, and end up on the outside. But that's for
an isolated turn. You touch the inside of the turn a bit "late" so that
you are pointed more into the direction of the coming straight; this
lets you go a bit faster.

The first-approximation is to follow the curve of least energy, or as
MikeWhy put it, the largest radius practical. But you're not going
through the turn symmetrically: you're going in one end and out the
other, so the second-approximation is that late-apex stuff. You
certainly don't want to turn in too soon because then you'll end up
aimed at crossing the far line (whether the inside for a right turn or
the outside for a left for you Essers and Continentals). Slow down, make
the turn, speed up.

--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
Ten Steps to Fascism: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

"Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote in message
news:timberwoof.spam-E10F20.14162817022008@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
> In article <k6OdnSuO2ajtCSXanZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> First off, been riding for a few months now and LOVE it. Hell of a lot
>> funner than driving a car.
>>
>> However, I could definitely use a reminder about cornering. When I took
>> the
>> motorcycle safety course I was docked for this and never really followed
>> up
>> on it. When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the outside and
>> finish
>> on the inside or the other way around? I remember that I had it
>> backwards
>> during class and for some reason (maybe because of the low speed
>> involved)
>> doing it backwards didn't seem wrong so I blew off the instruction.
>
> The general wisdom is to start the corner on the outside, kiss the
> inside of the turn a bit late, and end up on the outside. But that's for
> an isolated turn. You touch the inside of the turn a bit "late" so that
> you are pointed more into the direction of the coming straight; this
> lets you go a bit faster.
>
> The first-approximation is to follow the curve of least energy, or as
> MikeWhy put it, the largest radius practical. But you're not going
> through the turn symmetrically: you're going in one end and out the
> other, so the second-approximation is that late-apex stuff. You
> certainly don't want to turn in too soon because then you'll end up
> aimed at crossing the far line (whether the inside for a right turn or
> the outside for a left for you Essers and Continentals). Slow down, make
> the turn, speed up.
>
> --
> Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>

Alright I'm starting to remember now. I always took the corners from the
inside, and gradually accelerating out of the corner ending up on the
outside of the lane. I think the reason is because we were never in motion
until at the corner so starting on the outside was absurdly overcautious.
Had we been in motion, what you suggest would make more sense, drift to the
outside, slow and veer in, let the acceleration pull you back to the
outside of the corner and into the straight. Although I suppose we could
get into arguments on the various combinations - hairpins, chicanes, banking
turns.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:53:59 -0800, "Eigenvector"
<m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote in message
>news:timberwoof.spam-E10F20.14162817022008@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...

>> The general wisdom is to start the corner on the outside, kiss the
>> inside of the turn a bit late, and end up on the outside. But that's for
>> an isolated turn.

AKA, Late apex.

>Alright I'm starting to remember now. I always took the corners from the
>inside, and gradually accelerating out of the corner ending up on the
>outside of the lane.

The reason that is bad is because you may not see the exit that
decreases radius, which would put you off the road.

Late apexing is the line that typically allows you the fastest
speed/time through a turn. Since the real world is seldom like a
racetrack, you should never be trying for the fastest time through a
turn. Knowing the maximum performance line, however, allows you to
more easily compensate for sand patches, random rabbits in the road,
obscured vision, etc., when you don't ride near the edge.

(BTW, "typically" is just that. It does not hold, for example, in a
series of turns where the fastest line in the first turn is an early
apex that sets you up better for the next turns.)

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

"Turby" <turbosurfer@beach.comber> wrote in message
news:reehr39uvbje5ov8se9cu84bt79jvshgk3@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 14:53:59 -0800, "Eigenvector"
> <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>"Timberwoof" <timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote in message
>>news:timberwoof.spam-E10F20.14162817022008@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
>
>>> The general wisdom is to start the corner on the outside, kiss the
>>> inside of the turn a bit late, and end up on the outside. But that's for
>>> an isolated turn.
>
> AKA, Late apex.
>
>>Alright I'm starting to remember now. I always took the corners from the
>>inside, and gradually accelerating out of the corner ending up on the
>>outside of the lane.
>
> The reason that is bad is because you may not see the exit that
> decreases radius, which would put you off the road.
>
> Late apexing is the line that typically allows you the fastest
> speed/time through a turn. Since the real world is seldom like a
> racetrack, you should never be trying for the fastest time through a
> turn. Knowing the maximum performance line, however, allows you to
> more easily compensate for sand patches, random rabbits in the road,
> obscured vision, etc., when you don't ride near the edge.

I saw that as well this morning on my ride. Rounded a moderate curve and my
track put me square into a pothole, which I had to swerve around to avoid
dumping it.


>
> (BTW, "typically" is just that. It does not hold, for example, in a
> series of turns where the fastest line in the first turn is an early
> apex that sets you up better for the next turns.)
>
> --
> Turby the Turbosurfer

On Feb 17, 12:09�pm, "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the outside and finish
> on the inside or the other way around?

Obviously, you want to make the radius of a turn as wide as possible
by starting on the outside, setting up your speed and approaching a
turn so you can see *as far as possible* around it without overrunning
your sight line (vanishing point of pavement ahead).

Then you steer towards the inside apex of the turn (or a bit past the
apex, if you can "late apex" the turn to be able to accelerate out of
it sooner) and wind up on the outside of the turn (without crossing
the center line and running into oncoming traffic).

It is always possible that the driver or rider coming the other way is
crowding (or even crossing) the centerline, so always position your
motorcycle so you can see as far as possible around a turn before
committing to taking it at speed.

How you take any corner depends upon whether it's an increasing or
decreasing radius turn, if it's on-camber or off-camber, how far you
can see past the apex, the kind of paving material (asphalt without
gravel added, blacktop, or concrete), uphill or downhill, etc.

In his famous book "A Twist of the Wrist", rider trainer Keith Code
said that there are only *five* different situations that can be
engineered into a road.

1. Changes in camber; off-camber roads that slope away from the
direction the rider is trying to go don't offer as much traction as
properly-cambered roads that assist the motorcycle's traction.

2. Changes in radius; increasing radius turns make it possible for the
rider to add power after the apex and accelerate away quickly, while
decreasing radius turns mean that the rider will have to steer more
into the corner as it tightens up and he may have to roll off the
throttle or even brake as he approaches the apex.

A very common accident for frisky sport riders is when they enter a
decreasing radius turn too fast and wind up crossing the center line
because they either cannot
make the curve, or they do not trust their ability to lean the
motorcycle to its maximum lean angle and use all the cornering power
available.

As you lean a motorcycle past 25 degrees, you get more and more
cornering power, with increasing side slippage.

3. Series of turns; ess-turns that are exactly the same for each leg
of the "S" are fun and confidence inspiring, but road engineers will
often have to compromise for drainage of water off the road and the
two legs of the "S" may have different cambers and radii, making the
rider's task a lot harder.�

4. Uphill, downhill, and crested changes in elevation; a motorcycle
cannot be steered vigorously if the front end gets light as you go
over a rise in elevation in the middle of the turn. Uphill turns
lighten the steering, and downhill turns make the steering heavier.
Get used to those facts.

5. Straight sections of road, where no cornering is involved. But
don't trust the road engineer, a straight section that runs along a
steep cliff may be cambered toward the mountainside to drain rain
water into ditches that feed pipes that carry runoff under the road.

"Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote

> However, I could definitely use a reminder about cornering. When I took
> the motorcycle safety course I was docked for this and never really
> followed up on it. When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the
> outside and finish on the inside or the other way around? I remember that
> I had it backwards during class and for some reason (maybe because of the
> low speed involved) doing it backwards didn't seem wrong so I blew off the
> instruction.

As has been mentioned, on a track you'd want to enter a turn from the
outside edge of the pavement, arc smoothly over to the far inside, and then
end up back at the same edge of the road on which you began; thus widening
the radius of the curve and allowing you to traverse it at a higher speed.
But we don't -or at least shouldn't generally- do that on street.

On a normal two-laned highway we usually traverse a curve at about the same
radius as the that of the pavement itself, and you usually want to be
slightly on the outside of your lane to avoid having your tires tracking
down the center portion of the lane where cages tend to lay down the most
oil, which makes for less traction. (There's another high-traction zone out
close to the center line, but we generally want to avoid that one when we
can't clearly see the corner's exit and any approaching traffic that might
cross over the center line into *our* lane.)

There *are* exceptions to the above. (A) If you're riding in the mountains
and you've already seen rocks on the pavement and have reason to suspect
there may be more, the line closer to the center of the road is much to be
preferred since most of the fallen rocks will usually be closest to the
edges of the pavement. (B) If you can clearly see that there's no oncoming
traffic that might cross into your lane, but there *are* roads entering from
your right from behind scenery that might conceal a cage waiting to move
into or across your lane, you're again safer to be out near the center of
the road to give yourself more maneuvering room, a longer lead-time, and
better sight-line angles towards your right.

Other situations such as this may occur at random intervals, and an alert
rider should constantly be scanning the road both ahead of and behind him,
as well as keeping track of any surrounding traffic and/or upcoming
intersections, and asking himself "If thus-and-such were to happen, what
should be my response? Where should I be on the road? What should I be
looking for?"

Fighter pilots call this constant scan-and-appraise technique "situational
awareness", and the ones who develop it to a high degree tend to survive in
combat much better than those who don't.

The standard sequence of events for traversing any corner occur in this
order:

(A) Brake to something less than what you think is a safe speed, and do it
*before* you enter the turn. You don't want a decreasing-radius turn or a
blocked lane that you couldn't see on entry to upset your calculations
halfway through the curve, and it's much easier to scrub off speed in a
straight line than to have to do so while turning.

(B) Enter the turn smoothly rather than jerking the bike over suddenly.

(C) Be looking just as far through the corner as you can. If you *can't* see
the turn's exit you should still be looking just as far ahead as you
possibly can to give yourself time to react in case of a nasty surprise, and
you should have entered the curve even more slowly than you usually would
have.

(D) Once you've seen the turn's exit and know everything is clear -it isn't
a decreasing-radius turn, no rocks on the pavement to dodge, etcetera- you
should crack on a little throttle and ride through the rest of the turn
under slight acceleration. Nearly all motorcycles are more stable and feel
more "balanced" under slight acceleration than they do if you were remaining
at a constant speed or decelerating.

(E) Exit the turn the same way you entered it: smoothly. Jerking the bike's
suspension around decreases the total amount of traction you have remaining
at any given time.

(F) As you were exiting the turn you should have been extending your
sight-line just as far ahead as possible and beginning your
scan-and-appraise technique for the upcoming stretch of road, whether it be
a straight or another curve.

Lastly: beware of painted lines on the pavement; particularly in
low-traction situations such as rain. The reflective paint that's used on
roads is easy to see but supplies much less traction than do either blacktop
or concrete paving, and crossing a centerline while you're leaned over a
ways or trying to pull off an emergency stop while your tires are on a
painted line are both invitations to go pavement surfing.

On Feb 17, 3:09*pm, "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> First off, been riding for a few months now and LOVE it. *Hell of a lot
> funner than driving a car.
>
> However, I could definitely use a reminder about cornering. *When I tookthe
> motorcycle safety course I was docked for this and never really followed up
> on it. *When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the outside and finish
> on the inside or the other way around? *I remember that I had it backwards
> during class and for some reason (maybe because of the low speed involved)
> doing it backwards didn't seem wrong so I blew off the instruction.

If you are going a reasonable speed, anywhere near speed limit, you
should be able to stay in the left hand tire track all the way around
the turn. That gives you the furthest sight line around the turn,
avoids crossing any road munge in the center of the lane, and keeps
you away from broken pavement and other suprises that are often found
in the right hand tire track.

If the road has good pavement with no center munge and you want to use
the whole lane the fastest line is to start from the outside track,
sweep in to the inside track and let it run back out to the outside
track. This discribes the largest radius arc that it can be fit in
the curve and it is pretty much symetrical. In the interest of safety
you are better off turning in a bit late to give yourself a better
sight line around the curve. That will also give you a late apex and
you will leave the turn on a straighter line than you came in on.
That makes it so you are less likely to over cook the exit and run
into oncoming traffic. The late apex also works out good if the next
turn happens to be a left simce you can hold a tighter line exiting
the right, leaving you set up better for the left.

On left turns be careful about getting close to the center line. It
is important to keep your head on your side of the center line, not
just the contact patch of the tires. Same things apply about what
line to take in a left turn.

Bruce

Eigenvector wrote:
> First off, been riding for a few months now and LOVE it. Hell of a lot
> funner than driving a car.
>
> However, I could definitely use a reminder about cornering. When I took
> the motorcycle safety course I was docked for this and never really
> followed up on it. When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the
> outside and finish on the inside or the other way around? I remember
> that I had it backwards during class and for some reason (maybe because
> of the low speed involved) doing it backwards didn't seem wrong so I
> blew off the instruction.


Just go as fast as your vision allows.......If the apex of a corner is
coming towards you, slow down, if the apex is getting away from you,
speed up!

After a short time, you will be hitting the apex and powering on
forever........Nirvana!

Any wanker can go 300kmh in a straight line........

On Feb 17, 3:09*pm, "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> First off, been riding for a few months now and LOVE it. *Hell of a lot
> funner than driving a car.
>
> However, I could definitely use a reminder about cornering. *When I tookthe
> motorcycle safety course I was docked for this and never really followed up
> on it. *When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the outside and finish
> on the inside or the other way around? *I remember that I had it backwards
> during class and for some reason (maybe because of the low speed involved)
> doing it backwards didn't seem wrong so I blew off the instruction.

Sorry, but being left-handed I tend to get it backwards if I have to
think about it-

The idea when cornering is to shorten the curve and make it as much of
a straightaway as possible. So whatever technique you have to do that,
do it. Practice and see for yourself which is which.

Greg

*Cornering
> is the largest source of motorcycle fatalities in Washington State (last I
> looked at least>

Largest source of fatalities or largest source of accidents? What's so
deadly about cornering (provided another vehicle isn't involved)?

On Feb 18, 8:52*am, Rich T <rich_tint...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> **Cornering
>
> > is the largest source of motorcycle fatalities in Washington State (lastI
> > looked at least>
>
> Largest source of fatalities or largest source of accidents? What's so
> deadly about cornering (provided another vehicle isn't involved)?

I don't know if the above statement is correct but some of the dangers
are guard rails, trees, rocks, drop offs and other vehicles can become
involved if you run wide into oncoming traffic or cross the line
apexing a left turn.

On Feb 18, 9:02*am, Bruce Richmond <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On Feb 18, 8:52*am, Rich T <rich_tint...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > **Cornering
>
> > > is the largest source of motorcycle fatalities in Washington State (last I
> > > looked at least>
>
> > Largest source of fatalities or largest source of accidents? What's so
> > deadly about cornering (provided another vehicle isn't involved)?
>
> I don't know if the above statement is correct but some of the dangers
> are guard rails, trees, rocks, drop offs and other vehicles can become
> involved if you run wide into oncoming traffic or cross the line
> apexing a left turn.

Now that I think about it- news reports announcing mc deaths often say
"lost control". Who loses control going straight? So maybe there's a
grain of truth to it...

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:40:45 -0800 (PST), Bruce Richmond
<bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote:

>If you are going a reasonable speed, anywhere near speed limit, you
>should be able to stay in the left hand tire track all the way around
>the turn.

That can be a scary dangerous practice. On many twisty roads, you'll
find a ridiculously high percentage of drivers who cut corners on
turns, coming over the yellow line. If you stay in the left track,
you're almost asking for a head-on.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:55:25 -0700, Turby <turbosurfer@beach.comber>
wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:40:45 -0800 (PST), Bruce Richmond
><bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>>If you are going a reasonable speed, anywhere near speed limit, you
>>should be able to stay in the left hand tire track all the way around
>>the turn.
>
>That can be a scary dangerous practice. On many twisty roads, you'll
>find a ridiculously high percentage of drivers who cut corners on
>turns, coming over the yellow line. If you stay in the left track,
>you're almost asking for a head-on.

A what ? Oh, nevermind - I thought this was the Viagra
thread.


--
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'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
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Turby <turbosurfer@beach.comber> writes in rec.motorcycles:
>On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:40:45 -0800 (PST), Bruce Richmond
><bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>>If you are going a reasonable speed, anywhere near speed limit, you
>>should be able to stay in the left hand tire track all the way around
>>the turn.
>
>That can be a scary dangerous practice. On many twisty roads, you'll
>find a ridiculously high percentage of drivers who cut corners on
>turns, coming over the yellow line. If you stay in the left track,
>you're almost asking for a head-on.

The best way is to always stay on the outside of the road, until you can
see all the way through the bend and see whether it's safe. Then you can
go to the inside.

The open road requires a different cornering technique than is required
on the track. You don't optimize on speed, but on visibility. I.e. that
line that gives you the best view on what's happening ahead and that
ensures oncoming traffic sees you as soon as possible.

Mike

On Feb 18, 11:55*am, Turby <turbosur...@beach.comber> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:40:45 -0800 (PST), Bruce Richmond
>
> <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >If you are going a reasonable speed, anywhere near speed limit, you
> >should be able to stay in the left hand tire track all the way around
> >the turn. *
>
> That can be a scary dangerous practice. On many twisty roads, you'll
> find a ridiculously high percentage of drivers who cut corners on
> turns, coming over the yellow line. If you stay in the left track,
> you're almost asking for a head-on.
>
> --
> Turby the Turbosurfer

Depends on the road and the kind of traffic. Most roads around here
(NH and VT) are not swarming with nut cases that think they are on a
race track. If the rider is doing near speed limit like I said he
will have plenty of turning capability in reserve allowing him to
change to a tighter line should the need arise. If using the left
track is asking for a head-on it must be a bitch going anywhere in a
car.

Bruce

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:32:15 -0800 (PST), Bruce Richmond
<bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote:

>On Feb 18, 11:55*am, Turby <turbosur...@beach.comber> wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:40:45 -0800 (PST), Bruce Richmond
>>
>> <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> >If you are going a reasonable speed, anywhere near speed limit, you
>> >should be able to stay in the left hand tire track all the way around
>> >the turn. *
>>
>> That can be a scary dangerous practice. On many twisty roads, you'll
>> find a ridiculously high percentage of drivers who cut corners on
>> turns, coming over the yellow line. If you stay in the left track,
>> you're almost asking for a head-on.
>>
>Depends on the road and the kind of traffic. Most roads around here
>(NH and VT) are not swarming with nut cases that think they are on a
>race track. If the rider is doing near speed limit like I said he
>will have plenty of turning capability in reserve allowing him to
>change to a tighter line should the need arise. If using the left
>track is asking for a head-on it must be a bitch going anywhere in a
>car.

There are many tight blind curves in my neighborhood. If you start a
left turning curve in the left track, no matter what your speed, you
don't have the visibility to see a truck that may turn wide.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:03:41 +0100 (CET), usenet@dikkebrommer.nl (Mike
Schenk) wrote:

>The best way is to always stay on the outside of the road, until you can
>see all the way through the bend and see whether it's safe. Then you can
>go to the inside.

The best way is to understand all the parameters that affect a
particular situation and take the path best suited for that situation.
There is no one best line. Every time someone says "always", I can
list a dozen situations where that would be the wrong thing to do.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

Turby <turbosurfer@beach.comber> writes in rec.motorcycles:
>On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:03:41 +0100 (CET), usenet@dikkebrommer.nl (Mike
>Schenk) wrote:
>>The best way is to always stay on the outside of the road, until you can
>>see all the way through the bend and see whether it's safe. Then you can
>>go to the inside.
>
>The best way is to understand all the parameters that affect a
>particular situation and take the path best suited for that situation.
>There is no one best line. Every time someone says "always", I can
>list a dozen situations where that would be the wrong thing to do.

You are right, the danger of writing things down is that they come off
as the absolute truth. Still, in general, it is wiser to take the
outside of the bend as the de facto place to be than stick to the middle
of the road.

Mike

"Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:36137b06-e829-489e-8947-63a74fbef6e2@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 18, 11:55 am, Turby <turbosur...@beach.comber> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:40:45 -0800 (PST), Bruce Richmond
>
> <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >If you are going a reasonable speed, anywhere near speed limit, you
> >should be able to stay in the left hand tire track all the way around
> >the turn.
>
> That can be a scary dangerous practice. On many twisty roads, you'll
> find a ridiculously high percentage of drivers who cut corners on
> turns, coming over the yellow line. If you stay in the left track,
> you're almost asking for a head-on.
>
> --
> Turby the Turbosurfer

Depends on the road and the kind of traffic. Most roads around here
(NH and VT) are not swarming with nut cases that think they are on a
race track. If the rider is doing near speed limit like I said he
will have plenty of turning capability in reserve allowing him to
change to a tighter line should the need arise. If using the left
track is asking for a head-on it must be a bitch going anywhere in a
car.

=======
Anything resembling a curve has that potential. Most drivers *are* clumsy.
They turn too soon, and cut across the double yellow. It isn't that they're
near cornering limit. They just haven't learned better.

On Feb 18, 7:39�am, Rich T <rich_tint...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Now that I think about it- news reports announcing mc deaths often say
> "lost control".

Are you sure the article didn't actually say, "the vehicle went out of
control"?

Accusing the vehicle of "going out of control" won't result in a libel
suit for the newspaper.

> Who loses control going straight?

Mexicans and drunks lose control on straight roads frequently. I was
driving along south of Cancun and a Mexican turned his truck over on a
perfectly straight and level stretch of road.

On Feb 18, 8:55�am, Turby <turbosur...@beach.comber> wrote:

> That can be a scary dangerous practice. On many twisty roads, you'll
> find a ridiculously high percentage of drivers who cut corners on
> turns, coming over the yellow line. If you stay in the left track,
> you're almost asking for a head-on.

This is particularly true in the mountains and canyons of California.

One of the first articles in "Proficient Motorcycling" describes how
the last rider in a group will start falling behind and will start
cutting blind corners to keep up. The article
went on to describe a gruesome head on accident that resulted in death
and decapitation.

The point that the author was trying to make was that a rider should
position himself as far to the left as possible in order to see around
a blind right hand turn in the mountains before turning in towards the
apex.

Another point is timing of the initial countersteering effort. The
rider who starts a turn too soon will end the turn too soon and his
path exiting the turn may carry him across the center line into
oncoming traffic.

If that oncoming traffic is another motorist who is depending upon
cutting corners to keep his speed up, a fatality is likely.

On Feb 18, 1:05*pm, Turby <turbosur...@beach.comber> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:32:15 -0800 (PST), Bruce Richmond
>
>
>
>
>
> <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >On Feb 18, 11:55*am, Turby <turbosur...@beach.comber> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:40:45 -0800 (PST), Bruce Richmond
>
> >> <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >> >If you are going a reasonable speed, anywhere near speed limit, you
> >> >should be able to stay in the left hand tire track all the way around
> >> >the turn. *
>
> >> That can be a scary dangerous practice. On many twisty roads, you'll
> >> find a ridiculously high percentage of drivers who cut corners on
> >> turns, coming over the yellow line. If you stay in the left track,
> >> you're almost asking for a head-on.
>
> >Depends on the road and the kind of traffic. *Most roads around here
> >(NH and VT) are not swarming with nut cases that think they are on a
> >race track. *If the rider is doing near speed limit like I said he
> >will have plenty of turning capability in reserve allowing him to
> >change to a tighter line should the need arise. *If using the left
> >track is asking for a head-on it must be a bitch going anywhere in a
> >car.
>
> There are many tight blind curves in my neighborhood. If you start a
> left turning curve in the left track, no matter what your speed, you
> don't have the visibility to see a truck that may turn wide.

Then that would probably be a good place to use a different
technique. I did give one imediately following the stay in the left
track one.

I'd still like to know how cars manage on these roads. I seriously
doubt they have there left wheels in the right hand track, nor are
they likely to put them there except as a last ditch effort.

Bruce

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:09:16 -0800, "Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:

>First off, been riding for a few months now and LOVE it. Hell of a lot
>funner than driving a car.
>
>However, I could definitely use a reminder about cornering. When I took the
>motorcycle safety course I was docked for this and never really followed up
>on it. When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the outside and finish
>on the inside or the other way around? I remember that I had it backwards
>during class and for some reason (maybe because of the low speed involved)
>doing it backwards didn't seem wrong so I blew off the instruction.

This sounds more like a racing question. For normal riding I choose the
position that keeps me furthest from other vehicles and obstacles.

Ben

"Ben Kaufman" <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-dollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:2pgkr3t1vdpvgloe2lspmih4olffehtt9t@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:09:16 -0800, "Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>First off, been riding for a few months now and LOVE it. Hell of a lot
>>funner than driving a car.
>>
>>However, I could definitely use a reminder about cornering. When I took
>>the
>>motorcycle safety course I was docked for this and never really followed
>>up
>>on it. When taking an INSIDE corner do you start on the outside and
>>finish
>>on the inside or the other way around? I remember that I had it backwards
>>during class and for some reason (maybe because of the low speed involved)
>>doing it backwards didn't seem wrong so I blew off the instruction.
>
> This sounds more like a racing question. For normal riding I choose the
> position that keeps me furthest from other vehicles and obstacles.

And gives me the room to do any quick stopping that I may need to do in the
curves.
>
> Ben

"Rich T" <rich_tintera@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:27d94547-ff35-4e1d-b7d0-ae0a6d6cbe39@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Now that I think about it- news reports announcing
> mc deaths often say "lost control". Who loses control
> going straight? So maybe there's a grain of truth to it...

Very few people actually "lose control" anyway - it
would be more accurate to say that they voluntarily
surrendered it.

Bob M.