On Mar 9, 5:42*pm, "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Bob Mann" <B...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a7m8t3h09voavlmv9avfqgt3kjglh7fhts@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 14:21:35 -0700, "Eigenvector"
> > <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>"David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote in message
> >>news:Cs-dnUiskdU-zEnanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@giganews.com...
> >>> "Road Glidin' Don" <langkd_NO_S...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> >>>news:47d43658.499398457@shawnews.ed.shawcable.n et...
>
> >>>>>Oh God. Just make your fucking mind up, and buy anything. Stick a pin
> >>>>>in
> >>>>>a chart or something.
>
> >>>> It just had to be said... *<g>
>
> >>> I understand your thought process there.
>
> >>> I have my eye on a 2008 GSX650F.
>
> >>> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they
> >>> put
> >>> in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. *This means
> >>> they may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>
> >>> I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
> >>> sensor or that sensor ...
>
> >>> And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything
> >>> dies,
> >>> you ain't going nowhere. *Well-written software might tolerate a sensor
> >>> that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the
> >>> injectors die ...
>
> >>No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. *It
> >>needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
> >>cylinder. *Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
> >>would add to a bike. *It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true,
> >>but
> >>at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure about
> >>that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash the
> >>injectors. *Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
> >>controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased frequency
> >>of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and computer.
>
> >>Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me to
> >>trust it on a bike.
>
> >>> Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...
>
> > I don't think fuel injection is any more complex than four carbs
> > needing to be synched.
> > The problem is that the vast majority of us don't have a clue.
>
> Yeah I'll give you that. *I hate carburators with a passion bordering on
> pathological. *They are tempermental, tricky, and prone to getting out of
> whack. *It's not that I don't like fuel injection, so much as I know that if
> something goes wrong with a carb on the road I can limp home or even fix it.
> Whereas if a FI sensor or computer goes out, forget it, the bike's out of
> commission. *But again, my truck has FI, and it has only failed twice in
> 115,000 miles - pretty damn good reliability really.
>
>

Many FI systems have a limp home mode should a sensor fail. It may
not run the greatest but it will run.

> > There is a huge upside.
> > Better and more consistent performance, economy and ease of operation.
> > Yes there is a computer on board but a mechanic can hook into it and
> > tell right away what's wrong.
> > --
> > Bob Mann
>
> True about that too. *I have an ODBII code reader, so I do my own automotive
> work, I'd do the same if it were a bike.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

>"Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>news:cb472e18-3a5d-4314-9aca-e3ca16bada06@h25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>Many FI systems have a limp home mode should a sensor fail. It may
>not run the greatest but it will run.

That is my understanding as well. When I used to work for a certain large
automotive company, the only sensor that the engine controller couldn't
function without was the crankshaft position sensor. Other than that, there
were serious algorithms to live without other sensors. Of course, the car
would run like crap and the "Take It To The Dealer" or similar light would
be on.

"Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1afe26d3-ba5b-4435-9de4-f6cdd136b5af@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> How much time? My bike is 8 years old and is the first generation fuel
> injected model. I've run fuel injector cleaner through a tank of gas one
> time. Otherwise no other service on the fuel system.

Hardly the first generation. I know Kawasaki had fuel injection on
the 1979 LTD 1000. It was a continuous flow type system. The 1981
GPZ 1100 was also fuel injected with I think a system similar to the
LTD. By 1983 the GPZ had been converted to digital fuel injection
similar to modern systems. Here's a 1980 LTD

------>

I wasn't clear. I meant that my F4i was this first Honda 600cc sportbike
with FI.

On Mar 9, 6:07*pm, "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "BryanUT" <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:WK2dncC6RfJT_knanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote in message
> >news:BL6dnVZUSvEUwknanZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@giganews.co m...
> >> "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:0KWdnaO5jpJAyUnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.co m...
>
> >>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. *It
> >>> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
> >>> cylinder. *Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
> >>> would add to a bike. *It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true,
> >>> but at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure
> >>> about that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash
> >>> the injectors. *Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
> >>> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased
> >>> frequency of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and
> >>> computer.
>
> > What a load of crap. *You think a crash "stresses" the sensor and
> > computer. I'd be more concerned about the stresses to your body.
>
> I'd be more interested in stresses to my body too. *I'm not talking about
> racing here though. *Not to be argumentative, but pick up your home computer
> and drop it on the ground from 2 feet up - you can even take the hard drives
> out first. *How many times can you do this before it utterly fails? *To be
> very fair, the *"computer" in a vehicle is a dedicated CPU running specific
> programmed instructions it doesn't resemble your home computer *there are
> far less things on it to fail except for the delicate sensors - like the MAF
> and air temp sensor. *It is certainly padded and protected against the
> conditions seen on the road. *But delicate electronics subjected to sudden
> high accelerations are prone to failure.
>

The temp sensor is a solid rezistor that varies rezistance with temp.
There is nothing delicate about it. Few if any motorcycle FI systems
have a MAF sensor. If they did you wouldn't need to re-map the FI
every time you made a change to the engine. Few even have an oxygen
sensor.

>
> >>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me
> >>> to trust it on a bike.
>
> > How much time? *My bike is 8 years old and is the first generation fuel
> > injected model. *I've run fuel injector cleaner through a tank of gas one
> > time. *Otherwise no other service on the fuel system.
>
> That's fine. *My own truck has about the same record. *That doesn't equate
> to me running out and upgrading. *I don't need the added expense at this
> time in my life. *Perhaps later. *I want to stress this isn't about truth
> ownership here. *These are my opinions subject to change as I take in more
> information on the subject. *I don't think you're "dumb" for disagreeing
> with me on this subject.
>

For cars it got to the point where FI was actually less expensive than
a carb. Bikes may not be there yet but it is close.

>
>
>
> >> I went to a Suzuki parts site and began looking at parts prices for the
> >> GSX650F. *Wow! *Honda looks reasonable by comparison.
>
> >> $750 for the darned fuel injection computer.
>
> > A part you will never need to replace.
>
> >> $500 for the rear swingarm.
>
> > Unless you crash hard that part will never need replacing.
>
> >> And the fairing is expensive, too!
>
> > Well duh!
>
> >> But some parts were more reasonably priced than I expected. *Or maybeit
> >> was just sticker-shock from the ones above that made those seem
> >> reasonable.
>
> >> Wow!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:5d579ff5-7ead-4510-8329-8c18f46e0db0@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 9, 6:07 pm, "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "BryanUT" <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:WK2dncC6RfJT_knanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote in message
> >news:BL6dnVZUSvEUwknanZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@giganews.co m...
> >> "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:0KWdnaO5jpJAyUnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.co m...
>
> >>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
> >>> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in
> >>> the
> >>> cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
> >>> would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it
> >>> true,
> >>> but at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure
> >>> about that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash
> >>> the injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same
> >>> highly
> >>> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased
> >>> frequency of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and
> >>> computer.
>
> > What a load of crap. You think a crash "stresses" the sensor and
> > computer. I'd be more concerned about the stresses to your body.
>
> I'd be more interested in stresses to my body too. I'm not talking about
> racing here though. Not to be argumentative, but pick up your home
> computer
> and drop it on the ground from 2 feet up - you can even take the hard
> drives
> out first. How many times can you do this before it utterly fails? To be
> very fair, the "computer" in a vehicle is a dedicated CPU running specific
> programmed instructions it doesn't resemble your home computer there are
> far less things on it to fail except for the delicate sensors - like the
> MAF
> and air temp sensor. It is certainly padded and protected against the
> conditions seen on the road. But delicate electronics subjected to sudden
> high accelerations are prone to failure.
>

The temp sensor is a solid rezistor that varies rezistance with temp.
There is nothing delicate about it. Few if any motorcycle FI systems
have a MAF sensor. If they did you wouldn't need to re-map the FI
every time you made a change to the engine. Few even have an oxygen
sensor.
__________________________________________________ ______

Well that's that more information thing I spoke about earlier. I based my
opinion on how a car works. I know the FI system of my Ranger upside and
down. It uses a MAF, air pressure sensor, and air temp sensor to calculate
air density so it can then calculate the proper fuel amount. Like I said, I
just figured they all did something similar. If that's not true then sure,
maybe its not so bad as I figured it was. The cost is an issue, but as time
goes by that won't be as much of one. The MAF and air pressure sensors are
the worst as far as delicate construction are concerned. I wouldn't ever
expect the computer the go out - except in a crash, despite what I indicated
earlier.

__________________________________________________ _______
>
> >>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for
> >>> me
> >>> to trust it on a bike.
>
> > How much time? My bike is 8 years old and is the first generation fuel
> > injected model. I've run fuel injector cleaner through a tank of gas one
> > time. Otherwise no other service on the fuel system.
>
> That's fine. My own truck has about the same record. That doesn't equate
> to me running out and upgrading. I don't need the added expense at this
> time in my life. Perhaps later. I want to stress this isn't about truth
> ownership here. These are my opinions subject to change as I take in more
> information on the subject. I don't think you're "dumb" for disagreeing
> with me on this subject.
>

For cars it got to the point where FI was actually less expensive than
a carb. Bikes may not be there yet but it is close.

>
>
>
> >> I went to a Suzuki parts site and began looking at parts prices for the
> >> GSX650F. Wow! Honda looks reasonable by comparison.
>
> >> $750 for the darned fuel injection computer.
>
> > A part you will never need to replace.
>
> >> $500 for the rear swingarm.
>
> > Unless you crash hard that part will never need replacing.
>
> >> And the fairing is expensive, too!
>
> > Well duh!
>
> >> But some parts were more reasonably priced than I expected. Or maybe it
> >> was just sticker-shock from the ones above that made those seem
> >> reasonable.
>
> >> Wow!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Eigenvector wrote:
> "David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
> news:U-ydnUiLeaIC8EnanZ2dnUVZ_oCvnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> "[none]" <name@swbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:jNZAj.16489$Ch6.11773@newssvr11.news.prodigy. net...
>>> Eigenvector wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where
>>>>> they put in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price
>>>>> low. This means they may not have thrown enough money at it to
>>>>> do it right.
>>>>>
>>>>> I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things
>>>>> diagnosing this sensor or that sensor ...
>>>>>
>>>>> And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if
>>>>> anything dies, you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software
>>>>> might tolerate a sensor that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or
>>>>> the computer or any of the injectors die ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go
>>>> anywhere. It needs all of them to adequately compute how much
>>>> fuel is required in the cylinder. Frankly I don't see the
>>>> overall
>>>> benefits that fuel injection would add to a bike. It would
>>>> greatly improve efficiency, that it true, but at the expense of
>>>> greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure about that,
>>>> imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash the
>>>> injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same
>>>> highly controlled conditions and have the added detraction of
>>>> increased frequency of crashes, something that would stress the
>>>> sensors and computer.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time
>>>> for me to trust it on a bike.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...
>>>
>>> "a bit of time"? how many decades do you need? the 1985 Honda
>>> GL1200 LTD had Fuel injection. 23 years is usually enough time for
>>> most people to get used to most ideas.
>>
>> I think people are getting me and Eigenvector confused.
>>
>> Eigenvector argued that he doesn't trust fuel injection.
>>
>> My argument is that I don't trust fuel injection when you don't
>> have
>> a lot of money to throw at it. Clearly, on a $7K bike, you don't
>> have a lot of money to throw at it.
>
> No me and you share the same opinion, I think. On a 7 to 8k bike I
> would rather not pay the overhead costs that FI incur all thing
> considered. My lack of trust in them is more related to my own lack
> of experience with motorcycles in general. People may have been
> riding them for 23 years, but I haven't. In fact I haven't had my
> endorsement for more than 6 months. I don't have thousands and
> thousands of dollars to toss around so I tend to stick to
> conservative purchases. I know carbs work on bikes, so until I gain
> more experience with them I will stick to what I know. It's that
> simple really.

Do you know how to overhaul and synchronize carburetors? Yes, they
_work_ but they aren't maintenance-free.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Eigenvector wrote:
> "BryanUT" <nestle12@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:WK2dncC6RfJT_knanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>
>> "David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
>> news:BL6dnVZUSvEUwknanZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>>> "Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:0KWdnaO5jpJAyUnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>>>
>>>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go
>>>> anywhere. It needs all of them to adequately compute how much
>>>> fuel is required in the cylinder. Frankly I don't see the
>>>> overall
>>>> benefits that fuel injection would add to a bike. It would
>>>> greatly improve efficiency, that it true, but at the expense of
>>>> greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure about that,
>>>> imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash the
>>>> injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same
>>>> highly controlled conditions and have the added detraction of
>>>> increased frequency of crashes, something that would stress the
>>>> sensors and computer.
>>>>
>>
>> What a load of crap. You think a crash "stresses" the sensor and
>> computer. I'd be more concerned about the stresses to your body.
>
> I'd be more interested in stresses to my body too. I'm not talking
> about racing here though. Not to be argumentative, but pick up your
> home computer and drop it on the ground from 2 feet up - you can
> even
> take the hard drives out first. How many times can you do this
> before it utterly fails? To be very fair, the "computer" in a
> vehicle is a dedicated CPU running specific programmed instructions
> it doesn't resemble your home computer there are far less things on
> it to fail except for the delicate sensors - like the MAF and air
> temp sensor. It is certainly padded and protected against the
> conditions seen on the road. But delicate electronics subjected to
> sudden high accelerations are prone to failure.

Google "proximity fuze". That's "delicate electronics" that get shot
out of a cannon at accelerations that would turn a human being into a
mass of jelly. They knew how to do that in WWII with _tubes_. Don't
assume that a personal computer represents the limits of durability
for modern electronics.

>>>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time
>>>> for me to trust it on a bike.
>>>
>>
>> How much time? My bike is 8 years old and is the first generation
>> fuel injected model. I've run fuel injector cleaner through a tank
>> of gas one time. Otherwise no other service on the fuel system.
>
> That's fine. My own truck has about the same record. That doesn't
> equate to me running out and upgrading. I don't need the added
> expense at this time in my life. Perhaps later. I want to stress
> this isn't about truth ownership here. These are my opinions
> subject
> to change as I take in more information on the subject. I don't
> think you're "dumb" for disagreeing with me on this subject.
>
>>
>>> I went to a Suzuki parts site and began looking at parts prices
>>> for
>>> the GSX650F. Wow! Honda looks reasonable by comparison.
>>>
>>> $750 for the darned fuel injection computer.
>>>
>>
>> A part you will never need to replace.
>>
>>> $500 for the rear swingarm.
>>>
>>
>> Unless you crash hard that part will never need replacing.
>>
>>> And the fairing is expensive, too!
>>>
>>
>> Well duh!
>>
>>> But some parts were more reasonably priced than I expected. Or
>>> maybe it was just sticker-shock from the ones above that made
>>> those
>>> seem reasonable.
>>>
>>> Wow!

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mar 9, 8:39*pm, "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5d579ff5-7ead-4510-8329-8c18f46e0db0@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 9, 6:07 pm, "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "BryanUT" <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:WK2dncC6RfJT_knanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com ...
>
> > > "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote in message
> > >news:BL6dnVZUSvEUwknanZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@giganews.co m...
> > >> "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:0KWdnaO5jpJAyUnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.co m...
>
> > >>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
> > >>> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in
> > >>> the
> > >>> cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
> > >>> would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it
> > >>> true,
> > >>> but at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure
> > >>> about that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash
> > >>> the injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same
> > >>> highly
> > >>> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased
> > >>> frequency of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and
> > >>> computer.
>
> > > What a load of crap. You think a crash "stresses" the sensor and
> > > computer. I'd be more concerned about the stresses to your body.
>
> > I'd be more interested in stresses to my body too. I'm not talking about
> > racing here though. Not to be argumentative, but pick up your home
> > computer
> > and drop it on the ground from 2 feet up - you can even take the hard
> > drives
> > out first. How many times can you do this before it utterly fails? To be
> > very fair, the "computer" in a vehicle is a dedicated CPU running specific
> > programmed instructions it doesn't resemble your home computer there are
> > far less things on it to fail except for the delicate sensors - like the
> > MAF
> > and air temp sensor. It is certainly padded and protected against the
> > conditions seen on the road. But delicate electronics subjected to sudden
> > high accelerations are prone to failure.
>
> The temp sensor is a solid rezistor that varies rezistance with temp.
> There is nothing delicate about it. *Few if any motorcycle FI systems
> have a MAF sensor. *If they did you wouldn't need to re-map the FI
> every time you made a change to the engine. *Few even have an oxygen
> sensor.
> __________________________________________________ ______
>
> Well that's that more information thing I spoke about earlier. *I based my
> opinion on how a car works. *I know the FI system of my Ranger upside and
> down. *It uses a MAF, air pressure sensor, and air temp sensor to calculate
> air density so it can then calculate the proper fuel amount. *Like I said, I
> just figured they all did something similar. *If that's not true then sure,
> maybe its not so bad as I figured it was. *The cost is an issue, but as time
> goes by that won't be as much of one. *The MAF and air pressure sensors are
> the worst as far as delicate construction are concerned. *I wouldn't ever
> expect the computer the go out - except in a crash, despite what I indicated
> earlier.

MAF stands for Mass Air Flow. It measures the mass of the air taken
in and does not care about pressure. Knowing the mass air flow allows
the computer to calculate the mass fuel flow directly. With this type
of FI you can change cams, pipes etc and it will automaticaly
compensate because it is measuring the air flow directly. Some cars
use MAF systems.

The other common automotive set-up is a MAP system. It uses a MAP
(Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor. Given the pressure and rpm the
computer looks up in a table, also called a map, to see how much fuel
is required based on previous testing. If you change something on the
engine the previous testing may no longer give correct data. If you
made changes that affected air flow for a given pressure and rpm the
map needs to be updated to reflect those changes. The oxygen sensor
can correct for small changes but it is pretty limited.

A third type of system, the one that is used on most motorcycles, uses
throtle position and rpm. Again a table (map) is used to look up how
much fuel is needed. These systems have much quicker response times
which is more of a priority for bikes than cars.

> __________________________________________________ _______
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > >>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for
> > >>> me
> > >>> to trust it on a bike.
>
> > > How much time? My bike is 8 years old and is the first generation fuel
> > > injected model. I've run fuel injector cleaner through a tank of gas one
> > > time. Otherwise no other service on the fuel system.
>
> > That's fine. My own truck has about the same record. That doesn't equate
> > to me running out and upgrading. I don't need the added expense at this
> > time in my life. Perhaps later. I want to stress this isn't about truth
> > ownership here. These are my opinions subject to change as I take in more
> > information on the subject. I don't think you're "dumb" for disagreeing
> > with me on this subject.
>
> For cars it got to the point where FI was actually less expensive than
> a carb. *Bikes may not be there yet but it is close.
>
>
>
>
>
> > >> I went to a Suzuki parts site and began looking at parts prices for the
> > >> GSX650F. Wow! Honda looks reasonable by comparison.
>
> > >> $750 for the darned fuel injection computer.
>
> > > A part you will never need to replace.
>
> > >> $500 for the rear swingarm.
>
> > > Unless you crash hard that part will never need replacing.
>
> > >> And the fairing is expensive, too!
>
> > > Well duh!
>
> > >> But some parts were more reasonably priced than I expected. Or maybe it
> > >> was just sticker-shock from the ones above that made those seem
> > >> reasonable.
>
> > >> Wow!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

> Tires only last 5K?

depends on the bike. some grippy tires with some bikes with certain types of
riding styles last less than 2000 miles. i've seen photos of a new tire being
into the cords in 1000 miles.

David T. Ashley <dta@e3ft.com> wrote:

>
> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they put in
> electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This means they
> may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.

<snip>

You drive a fuel-injected car, don't you? The Japanese have been
building fuel injected bikes since around 1980. I wouldn't worry.

No, actually, worry away. It's what you're good at.


--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com

Eigenvector <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
> controlled conditions

Er, they drive on the same roads, so yes, they do.

<Puzzled>


--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com

J. Clarke <jclarke.usenet@cox.net> wrote:

> Google "proximity fuze". That's "delicate electronics" that get shot
> out of a cannon at accelerations that would turn a human being into a
> mass of jelly. They knew how to do that in WWII with _tubes_. Don't
> assume that a personal computer represents the limits of durability
> for modern electronics.

Excellent point.


--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com

Dean Hoffman <""dh0496\"@ine$br#as&ka.com"> wrote:

>
> One drawback on some bikes with fuel injection is they require
> higher octane fuel. I'd ask about that before plunking down $$$.

For fuck's sake, where did you get this gem from? The Weekly World News?

--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 16:07:50 -0700, "Eigenvector"
<m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:

>...But delicate electronics subjected to sudden
>high accelerations are prone to failure.

You'd be surprised. It's been a couple of decades since I did any
military electronics, but I've seen what a shaker table (vibration
test) can do. It's pretty impressive. A fighter plane that goes
through 13Gs puts electronics through far more stress than a
motorcycle. Yeah, they're mil-spec, but there really isn't that much
difference between those and commercial parts.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

"The Older Gentleman" <totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1idks0i.zvj8c3957oucN%totallydeadmailbox@yaho o.co.uk...
> David T. Ashley <dta@e3ft.com> wrote:
>
>> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they put
>> in
>> electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This means
>> they
>> may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>
> <snip>
>
> You drive a fuel-injected car, don't you? The Japanese have been
> building fuel injected bikes since around 1980. I wouldn't worry.
>
> No, actually, worry away. It's what you're good at.

Been married a bit too long?

You are awfully good at crafting those personal attacks ... like you've had
experience fighting with the wife.

David T. Ashley wrote:

>My argument is that I don't trust fuel injection when you don't have a lot
>of money to throw at it. Clearly, on a $7K bike, you don't have a lot of
>money to throw at it.

Nonsense. My $6k SV650 has fuel injection. I'd bet you anything that
it's quality/durability is identical to any FI system on any bike.

On Mar 10, 6:08�am, "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote:

> You are awfully good at crafting those personal attacks ... like you've had
> experience fighting with the wife.

Hell blot black for always the thought "Peace!" ---Ezra Pound

J. Clarke wrote:

>>But delicate electronics subjected to
>> sudden high accelerations are prone to failure.
>
>Google "proximity fuze". That's "delicate electronics" that get shot
>out of a cannon at accelerations that would turn a human being into a
>mass of jelly. They knew how to do that in WWII with _tubes_. Don't
>assume that a personal computer represents the limits of durability
>for modern electronics.

Exactly. Automotive (motorcycle) electronics is some tough stuff. It
has to be.

BryanUT wrote:

>> $750 for the darned fuel injection computer.
>
>A part you will never need to replace.

Carbureted bikes of the last couple decades also have "computers" that
can go-out.

On 10 Mar, 13:08, "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote:
> "The Older Gentleman" <totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in messagenews:1idks0i.zvj8c3957oucN%totallydeadmailb ox@yahoo.co.uk...
>
> > David T. Ashley <d...@e3ft.com> wrote:
>
> >> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they put
> >> in
> >> electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. *This means
> >> they
> >> may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>
> > <snip>
>
> > You drive a fuel-injected car, don't you? The Japanese have been
> > building fuel injected bikes since around 1980. I wouldn't worry.
>
> > No, actually, worry away. It's what you're good at.
>
> Been married a bit too long?
>
Not yet ;-)

Look, no offence, but you have posted paranoid question after paranoid
question for bloody weeks and I've just lost the will to continue
posting patient sensible replies.

So can I just anticipate your next flurry of worries with some advance
answers?

1. No, Japanese bikes will not explode if taken over 6,000rpm.
2. Yes, they are reliable.
3. No, they won't work if you don't put oil in them.
4. No, there is no conspiracy by Japanese manufacturers to build their
bikes so cheaply that they fall to bits 24 hours after the warranty
expires.
5. Yes, a good crash hemet will protect your head. No, a really cheap
one won't do such a good job.
6. No, I can't define 'expensive' and 'cheap' in this context. So buy
a reputable brand.
7. Ask your dealer what a good brand is, not us.
8. None of us worries whether the technology in our bikes will
continue to work, in the same way that we trust our TV sets just to,
well, work.
9. Yes, motorcycles are cheaper to run than cars.
10. Yes, motorcycles are more expensive to run than cars.
11. No, we don't know who has the keenest prices on Suzukis.
12. Nor Kawasakis.
13. Yes, falling off a motorcycle hurts.
14. Yes, brakes are designed to be powerful. If they weren't, you'd
run into the backs of trucks instead of locking up the front wheel.
15. Yes, it is easy to learn how to use brakes properly.
16. Yes, Suzuki makes an ABS version of the 650 Bandit.
17. No, ABS really does work.
18. Leather will indeed protect your skin better than PVC.
19. If getting your leathers wet worries you, don't ride in the rain.
20. JUST BUY A BLOODY BIKE! ANY BIKE!

The Older Gentleman wrote:

>Eigenvector <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
>> controlled conditions
>
>Er, they drive on the same roads, so yes, they do.
>
><Puzzled>

Indeed. Some strange thoughts being bandied-about...

Eigenvector wrote:

>> I don't think fuel injection is any more complex than four carbs
>> needing to be synched.
>> The problem is that the vast majority of us don't have a clue.
>
>Yeah I'll give you that. I hate carburators with a passion bordering on
>pathological. They are tempermental, tricky, and prone to getting out of
>whack.

Get over it, man. FI is not some exotic new tech. It's better, and
plenty reliable.

On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:37:23 GMT, dizzy <dizzy@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>BryanUT wrote:
>
>>> $750 for the darned fuel injection computer.
>>
>>A part you will never need to replace.
>
>Carbureted bikes of the last couple decades also have "computers" that
>can go-out.

Those are ignition timing though.
--
Bob Mann

It may be that your sole purpose in life
is to serve as a warning to others.

On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 00:55:05 -0800, Turby <turbosurfer@beach.comber>
wrote:

>On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 16:07:50 -0700, "Eigenvector"
><m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>...But delicate electronics subjected to sudden
>>high accelerations are prone to failure.
>
>You'd be surprised. It's been a couple of decades since I did any
>military electronics, but I've seen what a shaker table (vibration
>test) can do. It's pretty impressive. A fighter plane that goes
>through 13Gs puts electronics through far more stress than a
>motorcycle. Yeah, they're mil-spec, but there really isn't that much
>difference between those and commercial parts.

The Russkies do it with tubes.
Same ones that seem so delicate in a guitar amp.
--
Bob Mann

It may be that your sole purpose in life
is to serve as a warning to others.

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 16:35:05 -0700, "Eigenvector"
<m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>"David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
>news:U-ydnUiLeaIC8EnanZ2dnUVZ_oCvnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> "[none]" <name@swbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:jNZAj.16489$Ch6.11773@newssvr11.news.prodigy. net...
>>> Eigenvector wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they
>>>>>put in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This
>>>>>means they may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>>>>>
>>>>>I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
>>>>>sensor or that sensor ...
>>>>>
>>>>>And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything
>>>>>dies, you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software might tolerate a
>>>>>sensor that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the
>>>>>injectors die ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
>>>> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
>>>> cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
>>>> would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true,
>>>> but at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure
>>>> about that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash
>>>> the injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
>>>> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased
>>>> frequency of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and
>>>> computer.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me
>>>> to trust it on a bike.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...
>>>
>>> "a bit of time"? how many decades do you need? the 1985 Honda GL1200 LTD
>>> had Fuel injection. 23 years is usually enough time for most people to
>>> get used to most ideas.
>>
>> I think people are getting me and Eigenvector confused.
>>
>> Eigenvector argued that he doesn't trust fuel injection.
>>
>> My argument is that I don't trust fuel injection when you don't have a lot
>> of money to throw at it. Clearly, on a $7K bike, you don't have a lot of
>> money to throw at it.
>
>No me and you share the same opinion, I think. On a 7 to 8k bike I would
>rather not pay the overhead costs that FI incur all thing considered. My
>lack of trust in them is more related to my own lack of experience with
>motorcycles in general. People may have been riding them for 23 years, but
>I haven't. In fact I haven't had my endorsement for more than 6 months. I
>don't have thousands and thousands of dollars to toss around so I tend to
>stick to conservative purchases. I know carbs work on bikes, so until I
>gain more experience with them I will stick to what I know. It's that
>simple really.
>
The injection system on a bike at that price range is probably less
expensive than a bank of carbs.
They still have an ignition computer in them.
A Power Commander ignition/fuel system should around $300-$500 plus a
download. The stock ones are probably more expensive to purchase but
also probably a lot cheaper for the company to produce.

Ironically, carbs can still be tweaked to gain more power than fuel
injection but they becaome far more sensitive and tempramental.
--
Bob Mann

It may be that your sole purpose in life
is to serve as a warning to others.

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 19:00:16 -0400, "David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com>
wrote:

>Not really. When I've taken my bike to the spray car wash and hosed it down
>(not too hard), the oil pressure and sometimes overtemperature LED come on
>at half brightness until it gets dried out.

You need a Harley, that never happens to me.
--
Bob Mann

It may be that your sole purpose in life
is to serve as a warning to others.

David T. Ashley wrote:
> "[none]" <name@swbell.net> wrote in message
> news:jNZAj.16489$Ch6.11773@newssvr11.news.prodigy. net...
>> Eigenvector wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where
>>>> they put in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price
>>>> low. This means they may not have thrown enough money at it to
>>>> do
>>>> it right.
>>>>
>>>> I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things
>>>> diagnosing
>>>> this sensor or that sensor ...
>>>>
>>>> And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if
>>>> anything dies, you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software
>>>> might tolerate a sensor that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or
>>>> the
>>>> computer or any of the injectors die ...
>>>
>>>
>>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go
>>> anywhere.
>>> It needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is
>>> required in the cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall
>>> benefits
>>> that fuel injection would add to a bike. It would greatly improve
>>> efficiency, that it true, but at the expense of greatly increased
>>> complexity - boy I'm not sure about that, imagine getting rust in
>>> the tank, that would utterly trash the injectors. Bikes aren't
>>> cars, they don't operate in the same highly controlled conditions
>>> and have the added detraction of increased frequency of crashes,
>>> something that would stress the sensors and computer.
>>>
>>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time
>>> for me to trust it on a bike.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...
>>
>> "a bit of time"? how many decades do you need? the 1985 Honda
>> GL1200
>> LTD had Fuel injection. 23 years is usually enough time for most
>> people to get used to most ideas.
>
> I think people are getting me and Eigenvector confused.
>
> Eigenvector argued that he doesn't trust fuel injection.
>
> My argument is that I don't trust fuel injection when you don't have
> a lot of money to throw at it. Clearly, on a $7K bike, you don't
> have a lot of money to throw at it.

A stripped down Hyundai isn't a lot more than that and they don't seem
to be having any kind of rash of fuel injection problems. I don't
notice many people complaining about injection problems on the DL650
on Stromtrooper.com (the DL1000 did have some but they weren't
reliability problems, they were problems with the default tuning).

Fuel injection is just not that big a deal anymore. It's not rare and
it's not expensive (well, the manufacturers _do_ gouge on the control
module but I seriously doubt that the price they charge for it as a
repair part accurately reflects their cost).

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Bob Mann wrote:

> Ironically, carbs can still be tweaked to gain more power than fuel
> injection but they becaome far more sensitive and tempramental.

In model-specific instances this can be true because the stock injectors
and fuel pump aren't up to the task of flowing as much fuel as required
for the engine's maximum possible horsepower, but there is nothing
inherent in FI itself that makes this statement true in all cases.

--
'01 SV650SK1 '99 EX250-F13 '98 ZG1000-A13
OMF #7