One poster mentioned he wouldn't have anything but a fuel-injected bike?
Why?

I'm assuming no choke control?

I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric fuel
pump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at approximately constant
pressure, and electrically-actuated fuel injectors? All controlled by a
computer thingie? Or is it a cruder system?

Thanks for all.

"David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
news:LqKdnRVoRvkBv0nanZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@giganews.com ...
> One poster mentioned he wouldn't have anything but a fuel-injected bike?
> Why?
>
> I'm assuming no choke control?
>
> I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric fuel
> pump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at approximately
> constant pressure, and electrically-actuated fuel injectors? All
> controlled by a computer thingie? Or is it a cruder system?

I did find this page:

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/m...efi_basics.htm

My question was just whether bike fuel injection systems were typically
something simpler than a car. Looks roughly the same to me.

So, when I was in the Suzuki dealership and turned the key on the GSX650F, I
think that WAS the fuel pump.

David T. Ashley <dta@e3ft.com> wrote:

> "David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
> news:LqKdnRVoRvkBv0nanZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@giganews.com ...
> > One poster mentioned he wouldn't have anything but a fuel-injected bike?
> > Why?
> >
> > I'm assuming no choke control?
> >
> > I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric fuel
> > pump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at approximately
> > constant pressure, and electrically-actuated fuel injectors? All
> > controlled by a computer thingie? Or is it a cruder system?
>
> I did find this page:
>
> http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/m...efi_basics.htm
>
> My question was just whether bike fuel injection systems were typically
> something simpler than a car. Looks roughly the same to me.
>
> So, when I was in the Suzuki dealership and turned the key on the GSX650F, I
> think that WAS the fuel pump.

Oh God. Just make your fucking mind up, and buy anything. Stick a pin in
a chart or something.


--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Honda CB400F & SL125
GAGARPHOF#30 GHPOTHUF#1 BOTAFOT#60 ANORAK#06 YTC#3
BOF#30 WUSS#5 The bells, the bells.....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 18:55:41 +0000, totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk (The
Older Gentleman) wrote:

>David T. Ashley <dta@e3ft.com> wrote:
>
>> "David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
>> news:LqKdnRVoRvkBv0nanZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>> > One poster mentioned he wouldn't have anything but a fuel-injected bike?
>> > Why?
>> >
>> > I'm assuming no choke control?
>> >
>> > I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric fuel
>> > pump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at approximately
>> > constant pressure, and electrically-actuated fuel injectors? All
>> > controlled by a computer thingie? Or is it a cruder system?
>>
>> I did find this page:
>>
>> http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/m...efi_basics.htm
>>
>> My question was just whether bike fuel injection systems were typically
>> something simpler than a car. Looks roughly the same to me.
>>
>> So, when I was in the Suzuki dealership and turned the key on the GSX650F, I
>> think that WAS the fuel pump.
>
>Oh God. Just make your fucking mind up, and buy anything. Stick a pin in
>a chart or something.

It just had to be said... <g>

--

Home page: http://xidos.ca

"Road Glidin' Don" <langkd_NO_SPAM@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:47d43658.499398457@shawnews.ed.shawcable.net. ..
>>
>>Oh God. Just make your fucking mind up, and buy anything. Stick a pin in
>>a chart or something.
>
> It just had to be said... <g>

I understand your thought process there.

I have my eye on a 2008 GSX650F.

The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they put in
electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This means they
may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.

I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
sensor or that sensor ...

And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything dies,
you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software might tolerate a sensor that
goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the injectors die
....

Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...

"David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
news:Cs-dnUiskdU-zEnanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@giganews.com...
> "Road Glidin' Don" <langkd_NO_SPAM@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:47d43658.499398457@shawnews.ed.shawcable.net. ..
>>>
>>>Oh God. Just make your fucking mind up, and buy anything. Stick a pin in
>>>a chart or something.
>>
>> It just had to be said... <g>
>
> I understand your thought process there.
>
> I have my eye on a 2008 GSX650F.
>
> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they put
> in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This means
> they may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>
> I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
> sensor or that sensor ...
>
> And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything dies,
> you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software might tolerate a sensor
> that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the
> injectors die ...

No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true, but
at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure about
that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash the
injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased frequency
of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and computer.

Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me to
trust it on a bike.

>
> Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 14:21:35 -0700, "Eigenvector"
<m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>"David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
>news:Cs-dnUiskdU-zEnanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> "Road Glidin' Don" <langkd_NO_SPAM@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:47d43658.499398457@shawnews.ed.shawcable.net. ..
>>>>
>>>>Oh God. Just make your fucking mind up, and buy anything. Stick a pin in
>>>>a chart or something.
>>>
>>> It just had to be said... <g>
>>
>> I understand your thought process there.
>>
>> I have my eye on a 2008 GSX650F.
>>
>> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they put
>> in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This means
>> they may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>>
>> I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
>> sensor or that sensor ...
>>
>> And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything dies,
>> you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software might tolerate a sensor
>> that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the
>> injectors die ...
>
>No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
>needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
>cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
>would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true, but
>at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure about
>that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash the
>injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
>controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased frequency
>of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and computer.
>
>Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me to
>trust it on a bike.
>
>>
>> Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...
>
I don't think fuel injection is any more complex than four carbs
needing to be synched.
The problem is that the vast majority of us don't have a clue.

There is a huge upside.
Better and more consistent performance, economy and ease of operation.
Yes there is a computer on board but a mechanic can hook into it and
tell right away what's wrong.
--
Bob Mann

It may be that your sole purpose in life
is to serve as a warning to others.

"David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote:

:One poster mentioned he wouldn't have anything but a fuel-injected bike?
:Why?
:
:I'm assuming no choke control?
:
:I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric fuel
ump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at approximately constant
ressure, and electrically-actuated fuel injectors? All controlled by a
:computer thingie? Or is it a cruder system?
:
:Thanks for all.

Fuel injected: More complicated, more expensive, computerized
control of mixture (on the fly).

Carb: Cheaper, simpler, must be manually adjusted.

The fuel injection automatically adjusts itself to the temperature,
humidity and altitude. Once properly setup, it should be adjustment
and trouble free. If you are into tinkering, add a Power Commander
and plug in your laptop.

Carbs are fun to tinker with and require tinkering to maintain top
performance when conditions change.

--

David T. Ashley wrote:
> One poster mentioned he wouldn't have anything but a fuel-injected bike?
> Why?
>
> I'm assuming no choke control?
>
> I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric
> fuel pump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at approximately
> constant pressure, and electrically-actuated fuel injectors? All
> controlled by a computer thingie? Or is it a cruder system?
>
> Thanks for all.

One drawback on some bikes with fuel injection is they require
higher octane fuel. I'd ask about that before plunking down $$$.

Dean


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0KWdnaO5jpJAyUnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
> cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
> would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true,
> but at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure
> about that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash the
> injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased frequency
> of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and computer.
>
> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me to
> trust it on a bike.

I went to a Suzuki parts site and began looking at parts prices for the
GSX650F. Wow! Honda looks reasonable by comparison.

$750 for the darned fuel injection computer.

$500 for the rear swingarm.

And the fairing is expensive, too!

But some parts were more reasonably priced than I expected. Or maybe it was
just sticker-shock from the ones above that made those seem reasonable.

Wow!

"David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
news:Cs-dnUiskdU-zEnanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they put
> in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This means
> they may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>
You like to make up stuff to worry about. The cut costs my giving you low
end suspension and brakes.

> I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
> sensor or that sensor ...
>

Man you are worry wart.

> And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything dies,
> you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software might tolerate a sensor
> that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the
> injectors die ...
>

A flat tire will also stop you dead in your tracks as will a dead battery.

The sensors are going to go bad.

If I were you I'd pay more attention to the service interval for valve
adjustments and the associated cost. And don't forget tires every 5k miles
and new chain / sprocket every 15k miles.

> Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...

"David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
news:BL6dnVZUSvEUwknanZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@giganews.com ...
> "Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:0KWdnaO5jpJAyUnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>
>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
>> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
>> cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
>> would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true,
>> but at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure
>> about that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash
>> the injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
>> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased
>> frequency of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and
>> computer.
>>

What a load of crap. You think a crash "stresses" the sensor and computer.
I'd be more concerned about the stresses to your body.

>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me
>> to trust it on a bike.
>

How much time? My bike is 8 years old and is the first generation fuel
injected model. I've run fuel injector cleaner through a tank of gas one
time. Otherwise no other service on the fuel system.

> I went to a Suzuki parts site and began looking at parts prices for the
> GSX650F. Wow! Honda looks reasonable by comparison.
>
> $750 for the darned fuel injection computer.
>

A part you will never need to replace.

> $500 for the rear swingarm.
>

Unless you crash hard that part will never need replacing.

> And the fairing is expensive, too!
>

Well duh!

> But some parts were more reasonably priced than I expected. Or maybe it
> was just sticker-shock from the ones above that made those seem
> reasonable.
>
> Wow!

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 18:55:41 +0000, totallydeadmailbox@yahoo.co.uk (The
Older Gentleman) wrote:


>Oh God. Just make your fucking mind up, and buy anything. Stick a pin in
>a chart or something.

Yeah.

Look, David, at this point in your riding career, you don't need to
worry about stuff like top speed and fuel systems. What you have to
understand is that 99% of all bikes on the road are fine for what you
need. (The exceptions being Chinese crap and Harleys, of course. ;-))

The difference in reliability, performance, and everything else that
goes on under the skin is miniscule compared to your gut level feel
while you're on the thing. Does it feel good? Does it make you happy?
That's what really matters.

I've got a bike that makes noises when I stop. It clicks a bit, then a
fan turns on for a while. The first time it happened, I went, "What
the heck?" So it sounds funny for a few seconds. Big deal. It has
absolutely zilch to do with riding the bike and how much I like it.

Priorities, man. Don't worry about the small stuff. When you buy a
bike and ride it for a few months, the things that bug you about will
become clear. And those things will be different from the things that
bug us about the bike.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

"David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote

> The issue in my mind is,

There are, apparently, a LOT of issues......in your mind.
And I'm beginning to think, little else to get in the way.

"Dean Hoffman" <""dh0496\"@ine$br#as&ka.com"> wrote

> One drawback on some bikes with fuel injection is they require higher
> octane fuel. I'd ask about that before plunking down $$$.
>

Oh crap! Give him something ELSE to worry about ! ;-)

While that may be true, the requirement for a higher octane fuel has NOTHING
to do with whether or not it also has fuel injection.

Some bikes with carbs. require premium fuel too.

Eigenvector wrote:

> "David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
> news:Cs-dnUiskdU-zEnanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
>>"Road Glidin' Don" <langkd_NO_SPAM@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>news:47d43658.499398457@shawnews.ed.shawcable.ne t...
>>
>>>>Oh God. Just make your fucking mind up, and buy anything. Stick a pin in
>>>>a chart or something.
>>>
>>>It just had to be said... <g>
>>
>>I understand your thought process there.
>>
>>I have my eye on a 2008 GSX650F.
>>
>>The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they put
>>in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This means
>>they may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>>
>>I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
>>sensor or that sensor ...
>>
>>And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything dies,
>>you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software might tolerate a sensor
>>that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the
>>injectors die ...
>
>
> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
> cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
> would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true, but
> at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure about
> that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash the
> injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased frequency
> of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and computer.
>
> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me to
> trust it on a bike.
>
>
>>Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...

"a bit of time"? how many decades do you need? the 1985 Honda GL1200 LTD had
Fuel injection. 23 years is usually enough time for most people to get used to
most ideas.

David T. Ashley wrote:

> One poster mentioned he wouldn't have anything but a fuel-injected bike?
> Why?
>
> I'm assuming no choke control?
>
> I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric
> fuel pump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at approximately
> constant pressure, and electrically-actuated fuel injectors? All
> controlled by a computer thingie? Or is it a cruder system?
>
> Thanks for all.

"usually" better mpg, better adaptability to changes in altitude, easier
adjustments (instead of jetting), etc.

as one guy put it:

"Fuel injection is like measuring the amount of sugar in your recipe with a
measuring cup, and tasting it to see how much you should put in. Carburetion is
like throwing a bag of sugar against the ceiling fan in your kitchen while the
pot is uncovered. If you need a different amount of sugar, you use a different
sized bag, or spin the fan at a different speed, or change the pitch of the
ceiling fan blades."

"Bob Mann" <Bobo@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:a7m8t3h09voavlmv9avfqgt3kjglh7fhts@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 14:21:35 -0700, "Eigenvector"
> <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
>>news:Cs-dnUiskdU-zEnanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>> "Road Glidin' Don" <langkd_NO_SPAM@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:47d43658.499398457@shawnews.ed.shawcable.net. ..
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh God. Just make your fucking mind up, and buy anything. Stick a pin
>>>>>in
>>>>>a chart or something.
>>>>
>>>> It just had to be said... <g>
>>>
>>> I understand your thought process there.
>>>
>>> I have my eye on a 2008 GSX650F.
>>>
>>> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they
>>> put
>>> in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This means
>>> they may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>>>
>>> I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
>>> sensor or that sensor ...
>>>
>>> And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything
>>> dies,
>>> you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software might tolerate a sensor
>>> that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the
>>> injectors die ...
>>
>>No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
>>needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
>>cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
>>would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true,
>>but
>>at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure about
>>that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash the
>>injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
>>controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased frequency
>>of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and computer.
>>
>>Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me to
>>trust it on a bike.
>>
>>>
>>> Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...
>>
> I don't think fuel injection is any more complex than four carbs
> needing to be synched.
> The problem is that the vast majority of us don't have a clue.

Yeah I'll give you that. I hate carburators with a passion bordering on
pathological. They are tempermental, tricky, and prone to getting out of
whack. It's not that I don't like fuel injection, so much as I know that if
something goes wrong with a carb on the road I can limp home or even fix it.
Whereas if a FI sensor or computer goes out, forget it, the bike's out of
commission. But again, my truck has FI, and it has only failed twice in
115,000 miles - pretty damn good reliability really.

>
> There is a huge upside.
> Better and more consistent performance, economy and ease of operation.
> Yes there is a computer on board but a mechanic can hook into it and
> tell right away what's wrong.
> --
> Bob Mann

True about that too. I have an ODBII code reader, so I do my own automotive
work, I'd do the same if it were a bike.

Dean Hoffman > wrote:

> David T. Ashley wrote:
>
>> One poster mentioned he wouldn't have anything but a fuel-injected
>> bike? Why?
>>
>> I'm assuming no choke control?
>>
>> I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric
>> fuel pump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at
>> approximately constant pressure, and electrically-actuated fuel
>> injectors? All controlled by a computer thingie? Or is it a cruder
>> system?
>>
>> Thanks for all.
>
>
> One drawback on some bikes with fuel injection is they require
> higher octane fuel. I'd ask about that before plunking down $$$.
>
> Dean

that's a function of compression not HOW the fuel is delivered.

On Mar 9, 10:42�am, "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote:

> I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric fuel
> pump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at approximately constant
> pressure, and electrically-actuated fuel injectors? �All controlled by a
> computer thingie? �

Yes, except there is no "accumulator", there is a pressure regulator
that returns excess fuel from the rail to the tank.

Let me say it again. The latest crop of Japanese motorcycles needs
fuel injection to meet 2008 EPA requirements. The fuel injector only
admits fuel to the cylinder when it needs fuel, and it doesn't suck
unnecessary fuel when the engine is coasting.

Or is it a cruder system?

The crudest fuel injection system imaginable was the Hillborn injector
from the late 1950's. It was completely mechanical, and there was a
recirculating pressurized fuel system with a removable restrictor
called "the pill".

The pill controlled pressure in the fuel line returning to the tank
and that controlled the pressure at the orifice in the injector
throttle body.

If you've ever seen old films of Indy mechanics squirting fuel into
the intake of an engine, those were Hillborn injectors.

The EPA would go nuts if such a polluting mechanical injection system
was used.

The first motorcycle fuel injection system on a Jap bike was on a 1980
KZ1000. That system used *car* fuel injectors and the ECU took 150~200
watts of power to run, so you had to have a fully charged battery in
good condition to run all that electrical stuff.

On Mar 9, 10:55�am, "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote:

> So, when I was in the Suzuki dealership and turned the key on the GSX650F,I
> think that WAS the fuel pump.

There are two types of electric fuel pump. One is an electromagnetic
solenoid type that is attached to the frame. It goes click-click-click
until it builds up pressure.

The other type of pump is the submerged rotary pump that goes "whee"
while it's pumping.

"BryanUT" <nestle12@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qp6dnaTJksIA_0nanZ2dnUVZ_q2hnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
> "David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
> news:Cs-dnUiskdU-zEnanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they put
>> in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This means
>> they may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>>
> You like to make up stuff to worry about. The cut costs my giving you low
> end suspension and brakes.
>
>> I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
>> sensor or that sensor ...
>>
>
> Man you are worry wart.

Not really. When I've taken my bike to the spray car wash and hosed it down
(not too hard), the oil pressure and sometimes overtemperature LED come on
at half brightness until it gets dried out.

If they are going to use connectors like that for a fuel-injection system,
my troubles are just beginning ...

>> And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything dies,
>> you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software might tolerate a sensor
>> that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the
>> injectors die ...
>>
>
> A flat tire will also stop you dead in your tracks as will a dead battery.
>
> The sensors are going to go bad.
>
> If I were you I'd pay more attention to the service interval for valve
> adjustments and the associated cost. And don't forget tires every 5k
> miles and new chain / sprocket every 15k miles.

The chain interval you cited isn't too surprising, but the tire interval is.

Tires only last 5K?

"[none]" <name@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:jNZAj.16489$Ch6.11773@newssvr11.news.prodigy. net...
> Eigenvector wrote:
>
>>>
>>>The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they put
>>>in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This means
>>>they may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>>>
>>>I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
>>>sensor or that sensor ...
>>>
>>>And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything dies,
>>>you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software might tolerate a sensor
>>>that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the
>>>injectors die ...
>>
>>
>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
>> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
>> cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
>> would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true,
>> but at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure
>> about that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash
>> the injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
>> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased
>> frequency of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and
>> computer.
>>
>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me
>> to trust it on a bike.
>>
>>
>>>Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...
>
> "a bit of time"? how many decades do you need? the 1985 Honda GL1200 LTD
> had Fuel injection. 23 years is usually enough time for most people to get
> used to most ideas.

I think people are getting me and Eigenvector confused.

Eigenvector argued that he doesn't trust fuel injection.

My argument is that I don't trust fuel injection when you don't have a lot
of money to throw at it. Clearly, on a $7K bike, you don't have a lot of
money to throw at it.

"BryanUT" <nestle12@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:WK2dncC6RfJT_knanZ2dnUVZ_gadnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
> "David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
> news:BL6dnVZUSvEUwknanZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@giganews.com ...
>> "Eigenvector" <m44_master@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:0KWdnaO5jpJAyUnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>>
>>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
>>> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
>>> cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
>>> would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true,
>>> but at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure
>>> about that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash
>>> the injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
>>> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased
>>> frequency of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and
>>> computer.
>>>
>
> What a load of crap. You think a crash "stresses" the sensor and
> computer. I'd be more concerned about the stresses to your body.

I'd be more interested in stresses to my body too. I'm not talking about
racing here though. Not to be argumentative, but pick up your home computer
and drop it on the ground from 2 feet up - you can even take the hard drives
out first. How many times can you do this before it utterly fails? To be
very fair, the "computer" in a vehicle is a dedicated CPU running specific
programmed instructions it doesn't resemble your home computer there are
far less things on it to fail except for the delicate sensors - like the MAF
and air temp sensor. It is certainly padded and protected against the
conditions seen on the road. But delicate electronics subjected to sudden
high accelerations are prone to failure.

>
>>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me
>>> to trust it on a bike.
>>
>
> How much time? My bike is 8 years old and is the first generation fuel
> injected model. I've run fuel injector cleaner through a tank of gas one
> time. Otherwise no other service on the fuel system.

That's fine. My own truck has about the same record. That doesn't equate
to me running out and upgrading. I don't need the added expense at this
time in my life. Perhaps later. I want to stress this isn't about truth
ownership here. These are my opinions subject to change as I take in more
information on the subject. I don't think you're "dumb" for disagreeing
with me on this subject.

>
>> I went to a Suzuki parts site and began looking at parts prices for the
>> GSX650F. Wow! Honda looks reasonable by comparison.
>>
>> $750 for the darned fuel injection computer.
>>
>
> A part you will never need to replace.
>
>> $500 for the rear swingarm.
>>
>
> Unless you crash hard that part will never need replacing.
>
>> And the fairing is expensive, too!
>>
>
> Well duh!
>
>> But some parts were more reasonably priced than I expected. Or maybe it
>> was just sticker-shock from the ones above that made those seem
>> reasonable.
>>
>> Wow!
>
>

[none] wrote:
> Dean Hoffman > wrote:
>
>> David T. Ashley wrote:
>>
>>> One poster mentioned he wouldn't have anything but a fuel-injected
>>> bike? Why?
>>>
>>> I'm assuming no choke control?
>>>
>>> I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric
>>> fuel pump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at
>>> approximately constant pressure, and electrically-actuated fuel
>>> injectors? All controlled by a computer thingie? Or is it a cruder
>>> system?
>>>
>>> Thanks for all.
>>
>>
>> One drawback on some bikes with fuel injection is they require
>> higher octane fuel. I'd ask about that before plunking down $$$.
>>
>> Dean
>
> that's a function of compression not HOW the fuel is delivered.

Could be faulty memory on my part. I was looking at new bikes
about 5 years ago. The Vulcan 1500 with a carb required regular
unleaded, the FI version required premium as I remember. Maybe the FI
version had higher compression but I don't remember.


Dean


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
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>"." <RhiannonX@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:907dda64-6b44-4f16-87ec-c47e040edbb1@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>On Mar 9, 10:55�am, "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote:
>
>> So, when I was in the Suzuki dealership and turned the key on the
>> GSX650F, I
>> think that WAS the fuel pump.
>
>There are two types of electric fuel pump. One is an electromagnetic
>solenoid type that is attached to the frame. It goes click-click-click
>until it builds up pressure.
>
>The other type of pump is the submerged rotary pump that goes "whee"
>while it's pumping.

This was the "whee" type.

Interesting.

"." <RhiannonX@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:22805006-be96-4664-bc9d-5af0830620e1@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>On Mar 9, 10:42�am, "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm assuming that the technology involves something like an electric fuel
>> pump, perhaps an accumulator, a fuel manifold held at approximately
>> constant
>> pressure, and electrically-actuated fuel injectors? �All controlled by a
>> computer thingie? �
>
>Yes, except there is no "accumulator", there is a pressure regulator
>that returns excess fuel from the rail to the tank.

When I turned the key on the GSX650F in the showroom, the only mystery is
why [what I believe was] the fuel pump only whirred for a couple of seconds.

Maybe there is some strategy built in to the controller so that it doesn't
come on again until you engage the starter motor and then is on constantly
while the engine is running?

On Mar 9, 4:06�pm, "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote:

> When I turned the key on the GSX650F in the showroom, the only mystery is
> why [what I believe was] the fuel pump only whirred for a couple of seconds.

Yes, my FZR has an electronic timing circuit in the ECU that allows
the fuel pump to pressurize the fuel system.

Then the pump shuts off, and, if I want the pump to run again, I have
to recycle the ignition switch (turn the key off and on), but, by that
time, the fuel system is already pressurized and the solenoid pump
only clicks a few times.
>
> Maybe there is some strategy built in to the controller so that it doesn't
> come on again until you engage the starter motor and then is on constantly
> while the engine is running?

Yes, the fuel pump runs again when you start cranking the engine with
the starter. The ECU gets a pulsing signal from the pulser coil which
also tells the injector valve to open for "x" milliseconds. If it gets
the continuous "run" signal from a running engine, the fuel pump keeps
pumping.

Consider what would happen if the FI system didn't operate this way.
If you crashed and the engine quit running, the pump would keep right
on pumping fuel, perhaps all over the ground, maybe on a hot exhaust
pipe.

So, having the timer circuit and the enabling signal going to the ECU
makes total sense.

My FZR has a third insput to the ECU that controls the fuel pump. The
"Reserve" switch doesn't operate a valve, it just sends a signal to
the ECU to keep pumping gasoline when the fuel level is low.

"David T. Ashley" <dta@e3ft.com> wrote in message
news:U-ydnUiLeaIC8EnanZ2dnUVZ_oCvnZ2d@giganews.com...
> "[none]" <name@swbell.net> wrote in message
> news:jNZAj.16489$Ch6.11773@newssvr11.news.prodigy. net...
>> Eigenvector wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>The issue in my mind is, among other things, buying a bike where they
>>>>put in electronic fuel injection but kept the sticker price low. This
>>>>means they may not have thrown enough money at it to do it right.
>>>>
>>>>I really don't need to be getting out scopes and things diagnosing this
>>>>sensor or that sensor ...
>>>>
>>>>And fuel injection is necessary for the bike to run ... if anything
>>>>dies, you ain't going nowhere. Well-written software might tolerate a
>>>>sensor that goes bad, but if the fuel pump or the computer or any of the
>>>>injectors die ...
>>>
>>>
>>> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. It
>>> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
>>> cylinder. Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
>>> would add to a bike. It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true,
>>> but at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure
>>> about that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash
>>> the injectors. Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
>>> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased
>>> frequency of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and
>>> computer.
>>>
>>> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me
>>> to trust it on a bike.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, I'll send a link to pics when I finally buy something ...
>>
>> "a bit of time"? how many decades do you need? the 1985 Honda GL1200 LTD
>> had Fuel injection. 23 years is usually enough time for most people to
>> get used to most ideas.
>
> I think people are getting me and Eigenvector confused.
>
> Eigenvector argued that he doesn't trust fuel injection.
>
> My argument is that I don't trust fuel injection when you don't have a lot
> of money to throw at it. Clearly, on a $7K bike, you don't have a lot of
> money to throw at it.

No me and you share the same opinion, I think. On a 7 to 8k bike I would
rather not pay the overhead costs that FI incur all thing considered. My
lack of trust in them is more related to my own lack of experience with
motorcycles in general. People may have been riding them for 23 years, but
I haven't. In fact I haven't had my endorsement for more than 6 months. I
don't have thousands and thousands of dollars to toss around so I tend to
stick to conservative purchases. I know carbs work on bikes, so until I
gain more experience with them I will stick to what I know. It's that
simple really.

On Mar 9, 5:27*pm, "BryanUT" <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "David T. Ashley" <d...@e3ft.com> wrote in messagenews:BL6dnVZUSvEUwknanZ2dnUVZ_gudnZ2d@gigan ews.com...
>
> > "Eigenvector" <m44_mas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:0KWdnaO5jpJAyUnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com ...
>
> >> No, unfortunately if a sensor goes out that bike won't go anywhere. *It
> >> needs all of them to adequately compute how much fuel is required in the
> >> cylinder. *Frankly I don't see the overall benefits that fuel injection
> >> would add to a bike. *It would greatly improve efficiency, that it true,
> >> but at the expense of greatly increased complexity - boy I'm not sure
> >> about that, imagine getting rust in the tank, that would utterly trash
> >> the injectors. *Bikes aren't cars, they don't operate in the same highly
> >> controlled conditions and have the added detraction of increased
> >> frequency of crashes, something that would stress the sensors and
> >> computer.
>
> What a load of crap. *You think a crash "stresses" the sensor and computer.
> I'd be more concerned about the stresses to your body.
>
> >> Maybe just like fuel injection on cars, it'll take a bit of time for me
> >> to trust it on a bike.
>
> How much time? *My bike is 8 years old and is the first generation fuel
> injected model. *I've run fuel injector cleaner through a tank of gas one
> time. *Otherwise no other service on the fuel system.

Hardly the first generation. I know Kawasaki had fuel injection on
the 1979 LTD 1000. It was a continuous flow type system. The 1981
GPZ 1100 was also fuel injected with I think a system similar to the
LTD. By 1983 the GPZ had been converted to digital fuel injection
similar to modern systems. Here's a 1980 LTD

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/mod...100gp%2083.htm

And a 1983 GPZ 1100

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/mod...100gp%2083.htm

I don't claim that either model was a "first". If I did I'm sure
somone would come up with a bike from the 1950s that was fuel
injected. There have been several variations produced by different
manufacturers since these. All of which is more proof that the
systems should be pretty well sorted out by now.

We are in complete agreement about the rest of what you wrote.

> > I went to a Suzuki parts site and began looking at parts prices for the
> > GSX650F. *Wow! *Honda looks reasonable by comparison.
>
> > $750 for the darned fuel injection computer.
>
> A part you will never need to replace.
>
> > $500 for the rear swingarm.
>
> Unless you crash hard that part will never need replacing.
>
> > And the fairing is expensive, too!
>
> Well duh!
>
>
>
> > But some parts were more reasonably priced than I expected. *Or maybe it
> > was just sticker-shock from the ones above that made those seem
> > reasonable.
>
> > Wow!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -