Rather than simply let the topic drop I'd like to post a few articles.

http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?a...=4649&end=4648

"Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year
certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the
Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius
certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest
(highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the
Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100
miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle
would emit in only 1 mile of driving."
----------------------------
Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles. Imagine what some of
those old designs, especially a V-Twin with a carburetor sitting in a
hot spot between cylinders is doing.
----------------------------
from:
http://www.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/...2416MWE9J9.htm

"So the powers to be are looking at motorcycles seriously and trying
to see what can be done to reduce pollution. One way they are looking
at it, is abolish motorcycles all together. That would make many
politicians very happy (as reported before that Paris is studying the
possibility to stop motorcycles from entering their city {link}). "

http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news...Generate.shtml

"Motorcycles typically get about double the gas mileage of even the
most fuel-efficient cars—but that doesn’t mean they are green. Despite
getting 60-70 miles per gallon, motorcycles are not subject to the
same rigorous emissions standards as cars and light duty trucks, even
though they spew up to 15 times more pollution per mile, mostly in the
form of smog-causing hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides.

In the wake of these developments, the U.S. Environmental Protection
Agency (EPA) established new federal rules that require motorcycle
makers to reduce their products’ emissions by 50 percent. In place
since the beginning of the 2006 model year, these new rules are
expected to cut combined hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions from
motorcycles by about 54,000 tons a year, while also saving
approximately 12 million gallons of fuel annually by preventing it
from escaping from fuel hoses and fuel tanks.

Many manufacturers are rising to the challenge. Honda, already a world
leader in the development of greener cars, is putting the finishing
touches on its new “idling stop system” that cuts fuel consumption and
exhaust emissions by turning off the engine instead of idling at stop
lights and in traffic jams."
_____________________
The statement about mileage is false. The highest mileage automobiles
average in the high 70s to 90s and achieve up to 110 mpg.
=======================================

http://www.grist.org/advice/ask/2003...a-motorcycles/

"motorcycle hydrocarbon burden is 90 times higher than that of the
typical passenger car, and a motorcycle releases 20 times more total
pollution per mile than a new car."


========================
Classic Rider
www.2wheelclassics.com
========================

Classic Rider <ClassicRider@2wheelclassics.com> wrote:
>
> "Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year
> certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the
> Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius
> certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest
> (highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the
> Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100
> miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle
> would emit in only 1 mile of driving."
> ----------------------------
> Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles. Imagine what some of
> those old designs, especially a V-Twin with a carburetor sitting in a
> hot spot between cylinders is doing.
> ----------------------------

E-hem. This is 2001, which should be considered ancient history.

I don't know about other parts of the world, but Europe changed a whole
lot in 2006, with EUR III becoming the required standard for new bikes.
Since then, you'd have a hard time finding a carburetted motorcycle, and
definitely none without catalyzers.

Also, there's more than just HC's (I'll concede to you they're bad, but
CO's and NOx's aren't healthy either), and there's more cars than just
the Prius, most of which are considerably dirtier.

And there's the CO2, while not directly 'dirty', does contribute to
global warming.

> from:
> http://www.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/...2416MWE9J9.htm

Discarded: if the fuel put into motorcycles is only around 1% of the
total, then the CO2 emitted by those motorcycles can only be around 1%
of the total either. Motorcycles are not magic machines that find
additional C atoms in the fuel.

Reading the ADEME study, too. It said motorcycles range from good to
bad, in relation with the effort done to clean them. Worst, not
unexpected, are the little 50cc 2 stroke scooters without FI, catalyzers
etc.

> "So the powers to be are looking at motorcycles seriously and trying
> to see what can be done to reduce pollution. One way they are looking
> at it, is abolish motorcycles all together. That would make many
> politicians very happy (as reported before that Paris is studying the
> possibility to stop motorcycles from entering their city {link}). "

I'll be there next week, I'll see if I can spot a motorcycle. Last year
there's been thousands.

cu
.\\arc

Motorcycle get better "smiles per gallon"
--
Stupendous Man,
Defender of Freedom, Advocate of Liberty

"Classic Rider" <ClassicRider@2wheelclassics.com> wrote in message >

> Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles.

The cleanest motorcycle of the 2001 model year, vs.
the certification test levels of the Prius. Nice apples-
to-watermelons comparison you've got going there.

Didn't bother to look up CURRENT motorcycle
emissions levels, did you?

Bob M.

In article <uqsva4h6nbmig89hcnenoihu8bgnb0oajk@4ax.com>,
Classic Rider <ClassicRider@2wheelclassics.com> wrote:

> Rather than simply let the topic drop I'd like to post a few articles.
>
> http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?a...=4649&end=4648
>
> "Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year
> certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the
> Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius
> certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest
> (highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the
> Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100
> miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle
> would emit in only 1 mile of driving."
> ----------------------------
> Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles. Imagine what some of
> those old designs, especially a V-Twin with a carburetor sitting in a
> hot spot between cylinders is doing.
> ----------------------------
> from:
> http://www.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/...2416MWE9J9.htm

That's comparing apples and oranges. Let's compare the cleanest BMW with
the cleanest BMW, or the cleanest conventional Honda with the cleanest
Honda.

> "So the powers to be are looking at motorcycles seriously and trying
> to see what can be done to reduce pollution. One way they are looking
> at it, is abolish motorcycles all together. That would make many
> politicians very happy (as reported before that Paris is studying the
> possibility to stop motorcycles from entering their city {link}). "
>
> http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news...Generate.shtml

That's a stupid solution because the technology exists to make
motorcycles as clean as cars. BMW and Honda already make motorcycles
that meet those requirements ... even they don't have to meet the
requirements. (Please forgive me for destroying the meaning of the word
"requirement".)

> "Motorcycles typically get about double the gas mileage of even the
> most fuel-efficient cars—but that doesn’t mean they are green. Despite
> getting 60-70 miles per gallon, motorcycles are not subject to the
> same rigorous emissions standards as cars and light duty trucks, even
> though they spew up to 15 times more pollution per mile, mostly in the
> form of smog-causing hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides.

That's basically true.

> In the wake of these developments, the U.S. Environmental Protection
> Agency (EPA) established new federal rules that require motorcycle
> makers to reduce their products’ emissions by 50 percent. In place
> since the beginning of the 2006 model year, these new rules are
> expected to cut combined hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions from
> motorcycles by about 54,000 tons a year, while also saving
> approximately 12 million gallons of fuel annually by preventing it
> from escaping from fuel hoses and fuel tanks.
>
> Many manufacturers are rising to the challenge. Honda, already a world
> leader in the development of greener cars, is putting the finishing
> touches on its new “idling stop system” that cuts fuel consumption and
> exhaust emissions by turning off the engine instead of idling at stop
> lights and in traffic jams."
> _____________________
> The statement about mileage is false. The highest mileage automobiles
> average in the high 70s to 90s and achieve up to 110 mpg.

Bullshit.
http://www.autotropolis.com/wiki/ind...t_Gas_Mileage_
Cars_for_2008

You could, of course, come up with a link for your 70 mpg car and show
that there are a lot of them out there.

> http://www.grist.org/advice/ask/2003...a-motorcycles/
>
> "motorcycle hydrocarbon burden is 90 times higher than that of the
> typical passenger car, and a motorcycle releases 20 times more total
> pollution per mile than a new car."

Somewhat bullshit. Carbon dioxide is pollution, and a typical motorcycle
consumes less gasoline and emits less carbon ddioxide permile than a
typical car. As for the other pollutants (carbon monoxide, oxides of
nitrogen, unburned hydrocarbons), most motorcycles are gross polluters.

--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
Ten Steps to Fascism: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

On Aug 23, 6:39�am, marc.ger...@gmail.com (Marc Gerges) wrote:

> I'll be there next week, I'll see if I can spot a motorcycle. Last year
> there's been thousands.

http://news.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf...4558MWEB5B.htm

The Paris Transportation Department wanted to ban all motorcycles from
the city by 2012, but I don't read French well enough to tell what has
happened since the spontaneous protest of 400 motorcyclistics in 2005.

The association of angry French motorcyclists (FFMC) seems to be more
interested in gay rights at this time...

On Aug 23, 5:43*am, Classic Rider <ClassicRi...@2wheelclassics.com>
wrote:

Ten years ago you'd be a truthful blowhard. Now? Now you are a just a
lying self righteous bastard and a bossy little knowitall.

Sod off and go have a good evening with your brain dead boyfriends.
--
Keith
Funny how asshole hide their names innit?

On Aug 23, 4:43*am, Classic Rider <ClassicRi...@2wheelclassics.com>
wrote:
> Rather than simply let the topic drop I'd like to post a few articles.
>
> http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?a...0&first=4649&e...
>
> "Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year
> certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the
> Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius
> certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest
> (highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the
> Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100
> miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle
> would emit in only 1 mile of driving."
> ----------------------------
> Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles. *Imagine what some of
> those old designs, especially a V-Twin with a carburetor sitting in a
> hot spot between cylinders is doing.
> ----------------------------
> from:http://www.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/...2416MWE9J9.htm
>
> "So the powers to be are looking at motorcycles seriously and trying
> to see what can be done to reduce pollution. One way they are looking
> at it, is abolish motorcycles all together. That would make many
> politicians very happy (as reported before that Paris is studying the
> possibility to stop motorcycles from entering their city {link}). "
>
> http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news...w_Much_Polluti...
>
> "Motorcycles typically get about double the gas mileage of even the
> most fuel-efficient cars—but that doesn’t mean they are green. Despite
> getting 60-70 miles per gallon, motorcycles are not subject to the
> same rigorous emissions standards as cars and light duty trucks, even
> though they spew up to 15 times more pollution per mile, mostly in the
> form of smog-causing hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides.
>
> In the wake of these developments, the U.S. Environmental Protection
> Agency (EPA) established new federal rules that require motorcycle
> makers to reduce their products’ emissions by 50 percent. In place
> since the beginning of the 2006 model year, these new rules are
> expected to cut combined hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions from
> motorcycles by about 54,000 tons a year, while also saving
> approximately 12 million gallons of fuel annually by preventing it
> from escaping from fuel hoses and fuel tanks.
>
> Many manufacturers are rising to the challenge. Honda, already a world
> leader in the development of greener cars, is putting the finishing
> touches on its new “idling stop system” that cuts fuel consumption and
> exhaust emissions by turning off the engine instead of idling at stop
> lights and in traffic jams."
> _____________________
> The statement about mileage is false. *The highest mileage automobiles
> average in the high 70s to 90s and achieve up to 110 mpg.
> =======================================
>
> http://www.grist.org/advice/ask/2003...a-motorcycles/
>
> "motorcycle hydrocarbon burden is 90 times higher than that of the
> typical passenger car, and a motorcycle releases 20 times more total
> pollution per mile than a new car."
>
> ========================
> Classic Riderwww.2wheelclassics.com
> ========================

Ever ride behind a Honda F4i,,600RR, 929,954 or 1000RR with a pipe and
a power commander III set for max HP? The air to fuel or ratio of
about 10-12:1 vs (13;5 to 14:1 or perfect). It's awful or worse even
than the pre EPA leaded gas muscle cars of the mid 60's to mid
seventies. I'll fall back or pass one just to breath some fresh air.
I'd estimate that they're several 100 times worse than a modern Honda
or Toyota cage.And it generally shows perticularly with Sport Honda's
that get only mid 30's MPG for cruising gas mileage.And I'm not just
slamming Honda either. Suzuki's, Kawasaki and Yamaha seem to need a
PCIII less from the factory. IOW, their FI is better mapped from the
factory, with fewer throttle response problems. My 03 Suzuki 1000K3
got over 50MPG on the road at 80MPH or less.Now my little SV-650 is a
different story. It's too rich with a blackened pipe tip & on the road
at 80MPH it only gets mid 40's for fuel mileage.

BTW, due to their short stroke/high revs sport bikes are not notorious
for good fuel economy. A big Harley bagger prolly can get 60MPG at
normal highway speeds, mainly due to their longer stroke, & lower
revving engines.

Bob Nixon...

S'mee <stevenkeith2@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Funny how asshole hide their names innit?

<Considers own posting name>

Er, um, yeah, whatever ;-)


--
BMW K1100LT Ducati 750SS Yamaha XT600E Honda CB400F
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com
"What you're proposing to do will involve a lot of time
and hassle for no tangible benefit."

On Aug 23, 3:25*pm, totallydeadmail...@yahoo.co.uk (The Older
Gentleman) wrote:
> S'mee <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Funny how asshole hide their names innit?
>
> <Considers own posting name>
>
> Er, um, yeah, whatever ;-)
>
Well some. ;^) Mr. Murrey<sic> isn't hiding.
--
Keith

On Aug 23, 3:17*pm, Bob Nixon <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 23, 4:43*am, Classic Rider <ClassicRi...@2wheelclassics.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Rather than simply let the topic drop I'd like to post a few articles.
>
> >http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?a...0&first=4649&e...
>
> > "Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year
> > certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the
> > Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius
> > certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest
> > (highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the
> > Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100
> > miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle
> > would emit in only 1 mile of driving."
> > ----------------------------
> > Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles. *Imagine what some of
> > those old designs, especially a V-Twin with a carburetor sitting in a
> > hot spot between cylinders is doing.
> > ----------------------------
> > from:http://www.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/...2416MWE9J9.htm
>
> > "So the powers to be are looking at motorcycles seriously and trying
> > to see what can be done to reduce pollution. One way they are looking
> > at it, is abolish motorcycles all together. That would make many
> > politicians very happy (as reported before that Paris is studying the
> > possibility to stop motorcycles from entering their city {link}). "
>
> >http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news...w_Much_Polluti...
>
> > "Motorcycles typically get about double the gas mileage of even the
> > most fuel-efficient cars—but that doesn’t mean they are green. Despite
> > getting 60-70 miles per gallon, motorcycles are not subject to the
> > same rigorous emissions standards as cars and light duty trucks, even
> > though they spew up to 15 times more pollution per mile, mostly in the
> > form of smog-causing hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides.
>
> > In the wake of these developments, the U.S. Environmental Protection
> > Agency (EPA) established new federal rules that require motorcycle
> > makers to reduce their products’ emissions by 50 percent. In place
> > since the beginning of the 2006 model year, these new rules are
> > expected to cut combined hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions from
> > motorcycles by about 54,000 tons a year, while also saving
> > approximately 12 million gallons of fuel annually by preventing it
> > from escaping from fuel hoses and fuel tanks.
>
> > Many manufacturers are rising to the challenge. Honda, already a world
> > leader in the development of greener cars, is putting the finishing
> > touches on its new “idling stop system” that cuts fuel consumption and
> > exhaust emissions by turning off the engine instead of idling at stop
> > lights and in traffic jams."
> > _____________________
> > The statement about mileage is false. *The highest mileage automobiles
> > average in the high 70s to 90s and achieve up to 110 mpg.
> > =======================================
>
> >http://www.grist.org/advice/ask/2003...a-motorcycles/
>
> > "motorcycle hydrocarbon burden is 90 times higher than that of the
> > typical passenger car, and a motorcycle releases 20 times more total
> > pollution per mile than a new car."
>
> > ========================
> > Classic Riderwww.2wheelclassics.com
> > ========================
>
> Ever ride behind a Honda F4i,,600RR, 929,954 or 1000RR with a pipe and
> a power commander III set for max HP? The air to fuel or ratio of
> about 10-12:1 *vs *(13;5 to 14:1 or perfect). It's awful or worse even
> than the pre EPA leaded gas muscle cars of the mid 60's to mid
> seventies. I'll fall back or pass one just to breath some fresh air.
> I'd estimate that they're several 100 times worse than a modern Honda
> or Toyota cage.And it generally shows perticularly with Sport Honda's
> that get only mid 30's MPG for cruising gas mileage.And I'm not just
> slamming Honda either. Suzuki's, Kawasaki and Yamaha seem to need a
> PCIII less from the factory. IOW, their FI is better mapped from the
> factory, with fewer throttle response problems. My 03 Suzuki 1000K3
> got over 50MPG on the road at 80MPH or less.Now my little SV-650 is a
> different story. It's too rich with a blackened pipe tip & on the road
> at 80MPH it only gets mid 40's for fuel mileage.
>
> BTW, due to their short stroke/high revs sport bikes are not notorious
> for good fuel economy. A big Harley bagger prolly can get 60MPG at
> normal highway speeds, mainly due to their longer stroke, & lower
> revving engines.
>
> Bob Nixon...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

says the guy who rides an RZ350 last I checked. Me I'm actually doing
the T-500. Might try to find a way to rework the oil pump to pass
castor oil...it's a renewable resource.
--
Keith

On Aug 23, 4:46*pm, "S'mee" <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 23, 3:17*pm, Bob Nixon <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 23, 4:43*am, Classic Rider <ClassicRi...@2wheelclassics.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Rather than simply let the topic drop I'd like to post a few articles..
>
> > >http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?a...0&first=4649&e...
>
> > > "Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year
> > > certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the
> > > Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius
> > > certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest
> > > (highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the
> > > Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100
> > > miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle
> > > would emit in only 1 mile of driving."
> > > ----------------------------
> > > Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles. *Imagine what some of
> > > those old designs, especially a V-Twin with a carburetor sitting in a
> > > hot spot between cylinders is doing.
> > > ----------------------------
> > > from:http://www.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/...2416MWE9J9.htm
>
> > > "So the powers to be are looking at motorcycles seriously and trying
> > > to see what can be done to reduce pollution. One way they are looking
> > > at it, is abolish motorcycles all together. That would make many
> > > politicians very happy (as reported before that Paris is studying the
> > > possibility to stop motorcycles from entering their city {link}). "
>
> > >http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news...w_Much_Polluti....
>
> > > "Motorcycles typically get about double the gas mileage of even the
> > > most fuel-efficient cars—but that doesn’t mean they are green. Despite
> > > getting 60-70 miles per gallon, motorcycles are not subject to the
> > > same rigorous emissions standards as cars and light duty trucks, even
> > > though they spew up to 15 times more pollution per mile, mostly in the
> > > form of smog-causing hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides.
>
> > > In the wake of these developments, the U.S. Environmental Protection
> > > Agency (EPA) established new federal rules that require motorcycle
> > > makers to reduce their products’ emissions by 50 percent. In place
> > > since the beginning of the 2006 model year, these new rules are
> > > expected to cut combined hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions from
> > > motorcycles by about 54,000 tons a year, while also saving
> > > approximately 12 million gallons of fuel annually by preventing it
> > > from escaping from fuel hoses and fuel tanks.
>
> > > Many manufacturers are rising to the challenge. Honda, already a world
> > > leader in the development of greener cars, is putting the finishing
> > > touches on its new “idling stop system” that cuts fuel consumption and
> > > exhaust emissions by turning off the engine instead of idling at stop
> > > lights and in traffic jams."
> > > _____________________
> > > The statement about mileage is false. *The highest mileage automobiles
> > > average in the high 70s to 90s and achieve up to 110 mpg.
> > > =======================================
>
> > >http://www.grist.org/advice/ask/2003...a-motorcycles/
>
> > > "motorcycle hydrocarbon burden is 90 times higher than that of the
> > > typical passenger car, and a motorcycle releases 20 times more total
> > > pollution per mile than a new car."
>
> > > ========================
> > > Classic Riderwww.2wheelclassics.com
> > > ========================
>
> > Ever ride behind a Honda F4i,,600RR, 929,954 or 1000RR with a pipe and
> > a power commander III set for max HP? The air to fuel or ratio of
> > about 10-12:1 *vs *(13;5 to 14:1 or perfect). It's awful or worse even
> > than the pre EPA leaded gas muscle cars of the mid 60's to mid
> > seventies. I'll fall back or pass one just to breath some fresh air.
> > I'd estimate that they're several 100 times worse than a modern Honda
> > or Toyota cage.And it generally shows perticularly with Sport Honda's
> > that get only mid 30's MPG for cruising gas mileage.And I'm not just
> > slamming Honda either. Suzuki's, Kawasaki and Yamaha seem to need a
> > PCIII less from the factory. IOW, their FI is better mapped from the
> > factory, with fewer throttle response problems. My 03 Suzuki 1000K3
> > got over 50MPG on the road at 80MPH or less.Now my little SV-650 is a
> > different story. It's too rich with a blackened pipe tip & on the road
> > at 80MPH it only gets mid 40's for fuel mileage.
>
> > BTW, due to their short stroke/high revs sport bikes are not notorious
> > for good fuel economy. A big Harley bagger prolly can get 60MPG at
> > normal highway speeds, mainly due to their longer stroke, & lower
> > revving engines.
>
> > Bob Nixon...- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> says the guy who rides an RZ350 last I checked. Me I'm actually doing
> the T-500. Might try to find a way to rework the oil pump to pass
> castor oil...it's a renewable resource.
> --
> Keith- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

My RZ-350 has had the engine toasted for about 6 months. Soon to be
returned to me. For the past six months I've been riding a one year
old with 5K on the ODO that cost me $5200 OTD.SV-650 with a Yosh
RS-3 pipe that runs too rich but goes like hell (140 ind) for a little
SV. Picture below.

http://bigrex.net/pictures/06SV-650/...new-SV-650.jpg

Bob Nixon..

On Aug 23, 8:49*pm, Bob Nixon <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 23, 4:46*pm, "S'mee" <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 23, 3:17*pm, Bob Nixon <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 23, 4:43*am, Classic Rider <ClassicRi...@2wheelclassics.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > Rather than simply let the topic drop I'd like to post a few articles.
>
> > > >http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?a...0&first=4649&e...
>
> > > > "Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year
> > > > certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the
> > > > Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius
> > > > certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest
> > > > (highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the
> > > > Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100
> > > > miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle
> > > > would emit in only 1 mile of driving."
> > > > ----------------------------
> > > > Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles. *Imagine what some of
> > > > those old designs, especially a V-Twin with a carburetor sitting ina
> > > > hot spot between cylinders is doing.
> > > > ----------------------------
> > > > from:http://www.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/...2416MWE9J9.htm
>
> > > > "So the powers to be are looking at motorcycles seriously and trying
> > > > to see what can be done to reduce pollution. One way they are looking
> > > > at it, is abolish motorcycles all together. That would make many
> > > > politicians very happy (as reported before that Paris is studying the
> > > > possibility to stop motorcycles from entering their city {link}). "
>
> > > >http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news...w_Much_Polluti...
>
> > > > "Motorcycles typically get about double the gas mileage of even the
> > > > most fuel-efficient cars—but that doesn’t mean they are green. Despite
> > > > getting 60-70 miles per gallon, motorcycles are not subject to the
> > > > same rigorous emissions standards as cars and light duty trucks, even
> > > > though they spew up to 15 times more pollution per mile, mostly in the
> > > > form of smog-causing hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides.
>
> > > > In the wake of these developments, the U.S. Environmental Protection
> > > > Agency (EPA) established new federal rules that require motorcycle
> > > > makers to reduce their products’ emissions by 50 percent. In place
> > > > since the beginning of the 2006 model year, these new rules are
> > > > expected to cut combined hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions from
> > > > motorcycles by about 54,000 tons a year, while also saving
> > > > approximately 12 million gallons of fuel annually by preventing it
> > > > from escaping from fuel hoses and fuel tanks.
>
> > > > Many manufacturers are rising to the challenge. Honda, already a world
> > > > leader in the development of greener cars, is putting the finishing
> > > > touches on its new “idling stop system” that cuts fuel consumption and
> > > > exhaust emissions by turning off the engine instead of idling at stop
> > > > lights and in traffic jams."
> > > > _____________________
> > > > The statement about mileage is false. *The highest mileage automobiles
> > > > average in the high 70s to 90s and achieve up to 110 mpg.
> > > > =======================================
>
> > > >http://www.grist.org/advice/ask/2003...a-motorcycles/
>
> > > > "motorcycle hydrocarbon burden is 90 times higher than that of the
> > > > typical passenger car, and a motorcycle releases 20 times more total
> > > > pollution per mile than a new car."
>
> > > > ========================
> > > > Classic Riderwww.2wheelclassics.com
> > > > ========================
>
> > > Ever ride behind a Honda F4i,,600RR, 929,954 or 1000RR with a pipe and
> > > a power commander III set for max HP? The air to fuel or ratio of
> > > about 10-12:1 *vs *(13;5 to 14:1 or perfect). It's awful or worseeven
> > > than the pre EPA leaded gas muscle cars of the mid 60's to mid
> > > seventies. I'll fall back or pass one just to breath some fresh air.
> > > I'd estimate that they're several 100 times worse than a modern Honda
> > > or Toyota cage.And it generally shows perticularly with Sport Honda's
> > > that get only mid 30's MPG for cruising gas mileage.And I'm not just
> > > slamming Honda either. Suzuki's, Kawasaki and Yamaha seem to need a
> > > PCIII less from the factory. IOW, their FI is better mapped from the
> > > factory, with fewer throttle response problems. My 03 Suzuki 1000K3
> > > got over 50MPG on the road at 80MPH or less.Now my little SV-650 is a
> > > different story. It's too rich with a blackened pipe tip & on the road
> > > at 80MPH it only gets mid 40's for fuel mileage.
>
> > > BTW, due to their short stroke/high revs sport bikes are not notorious
> > > for good fuel economy. A big Harley bagger prolly can get 60MPG at
> > > normal highway speeds, mainly due to their longer stroke, & lower
> > > revving engines.
>
> > > Bob Nixon...- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > says the guy who rides an RZ350 last I checked. Me I'm actually doing
> > the T-500. Might try to find a way to rework the oil pump to pass
> > castor oil...it's a renewable resource.
> > --
> > Keith- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> My RZ-350 has had the engine toasted for about 6 months.

I thought that was done. What happened?
>Soon to be
> returned to me. For the past six months I've been riding a one year
> old *with 5K on the ODO *that cost me $5200 OTD.SV-650 with a Yosh
> RS-3 pipe that runs too rich but goes like hell (140 ind) for a little
> SV. Picture below.

The bike is great(or so I'm told) But I hate a rich running vehicle.

> http://bigrex.net/pictures/06SV-650/...new-SV-650.jpg

Nice.
--
Keith

On Aug 23, 8:49*pm, Bob Nixon <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> http://bigrex.net/pictures/06SV-650/...new-SV-650.jpg

I forgot to mention you appear to be doing well also. I mena sheesh
your smiling even! ;^)

p.s. yes I know my idea is crazy and likely too expensive to bother
with...but I can dream right?
--
Keith

On Aug 24, 6:37*am, "S'mee" <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 23, 8:49*pm, Bob Nixon <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 23, 4:46*pm, "S'mee" <stevenkei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 23, 3:17*pm, Bob Nixon <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Aug 23, 4:43*am, Classic Rider <ClassicRi...@2wheelclassics.com>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > Rather than simply let the topic drop I'd like to post a few articles.
>
> > > > >http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?a...0&first=4649&e...
>
> > > > > "Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year
> > > > > certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the
> > > > > Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius
> > > > > certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest
> > > > > (highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the
> > > > > Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100
> > > > > miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle
> > > > > would emit in only 1 mile of driving."
> > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > > Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles. *Imagine what some of
> > > > > those old designs, especially a V-Twin with a carburetor sitting in a
> > > > > hot spot between cylinders is doing.
> > > > > ----------------------------
> > > > > from:http://www.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/...2416MWE9J9.htm
>
> > > > > "So the powers to be are looking at motorcycles seriously and trying
> > > > > to see what can be done to reduce pollution. One way they are looking
> > > > > at it, is abolish motorcycles all together. That would make many
> > > > > politicians very happy (as reported before that Paris is studyingthe
> > > > > possibility to stop motorcycles from entering their city {link})."
>
> > > > >http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news...w_Much_Polluti...
>
> > > > > "Motorcycles typically get about double the gas mileage of even the
> > > > > most fuel-efficient cars—but that doesn’t mean they are green.. Despite
> > > > > getting 60-70 miles per gallon, motorcycles are not subject to the
> > > > > same rigorous emissions standards as cars and light duty trucks, even
> > > > > though they spew up to 15 times more pollution per mile, mostly in the
> > > > > form of smog-causing hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides.
>
> > > > > In the wake of these developments, the U.S. Environmental Protection
> > > > > Agency (EPA) established new federal rules that require motorcycle
> > > > > makers to reduce their products’ emissions by 50 percent. In place
> > > > > since the beginning of the 2006 model year, these new rules are
> > > > > expected to cut combined hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissionsfrom
> > > > > motorcycles by about 54,000 tons a year, while also saving
> > > > > approximately 12 million gallons of fuel annually by preventing it
> > > > > from escaping from fuel hoses and fuel tanks.
>
> > > > > Many manufacturers are rising to the challenge. Honda, already a world
> > > > > leader in the development of greener cars, is putting the finishing
> > > > > touches on its new “idling stop system” that cuts fuel consumption and
> > > > > exhaust emissions by turning off the engine instead of idling at stop
> > > > > lights and in traffic jams."
> > > > > _____________________
> > > > > The statement about mileage is false. *The highest mileage automobiles
> > > > > average in the high 70s to 90s and achieve up to 110 mpg.
> > > > > =======================================
>
> > > > >http://www.grist.org/advice/ask/2003...a-motorcycles/
>
> > > > > "motorcycle hydrocarbon burden is 90 times higher than that of the
> > > > > typical passenger car, and a motorcycle releases 20 times more total
> > > > > pollution per mile than a new car."
>
> > > > > ========================
> > > > > Classic Riderwww.2wheelclassics.com
> > > > > ========================
>
> > > > Ever ride behind a Honda F4i,,600RR, 929,954 or 1000RR with a pipe and
> > > > a power commander III set for max HP? The air to fuel or ratio of
> > > > about 10-12:1 *vs *(13;5 to 14:1 or perfect). It's awful or worse even
> > > > than the pre EPA leaded gas muscle cars of the mid 60's to mid
> > > > seventies. I'll fall back or pass one just to breath some fresh air..
> > > > I'd estimate that they're several 100 times worse than a modern Honda
> > > > or Toyota cage.And it generally shows perticularly with Sport Honda's
> > > > that get only mid 30's MPG for cruising gas mileage.And I'm not just
> > > > slamming Honda either. Suzuki's, Kawasaki and Yamaha seem to need a
> > > > PCIII less from the factory. IOW, their FI is better mapped from the
> > > > factory, with fewer throttle response problems. My 03 Suzuki 1000K3
> > > > got over 50MPG on the road at 80MPH or less.Now my little SV-650 isa
> > > > different story. It's too rich with a blackened pipe tip & on the road
> > > > at 80MPH it only gets mid 40's for fuel mileage.
>
> > > > BTW, due to their short stroke/high revs sport bikes are not notorious
> > > > for good fuel economy. A big Harley bagger prolly can get 60MPG at
> > > > normal highway speeds, mainly due to their longer stroke, & lower
> > > > revving engines.
>
> > > > Bob Nixon...- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > says the guy who rides an RZ350 last I checked. Me I'm actually doing
> > > the T-500. Might try to find a way to rework the oil pump to pass
> > > castor oil...it's a renewable resource.
> > > --
> > > Keith- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > My RZ-350 has had the engine toasted for about 6 months.


Froze the lower end of a rod bearing only 50 miles in the breakin'.
They're fixing it on their nickle this time.

> I thought that was done. What happened?
>
> >Soon to be
> > returned to me. For the past six months I've been riding a one year
> > old *with 5K on the ODO *that cost me $5200 OTD.SV-650 with a Yosh
> > RS-3 pipe that runs too rich but goes like hell (140 ind) for a little
> > SV. Picture below.
>
> The bike is great(or so I'm told) But I hate a rich running vehicle.
>
> >http://bigrex.net/pictures/06SV-650/...new-SV-650.jpg
>
> Nice.
> --
> Keith- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bob...

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 15:39:18 +0200, marc.gerges@gmail.com (Marc
Gerges) wrote:

>Classic Rider <ClassicRider@2wheelclassics.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year
>> certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the
>> Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius
>> certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest
>> (highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the
>> Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100
>> miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle
>> would emit in only 1 mile of driving."
>> ----------------------------
>> Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles. Imagine what some of
>> those old designs, especially a V-Twin with a carburetor sitting in a
>> hot spot between cylinders is doing.
>> ----------------------------
>
>E-hem. This is 2001, which should be considered ancient history.

Then we should mandate the scrapping of every motorcycle that is not
up to date? Studies seldom are produced within even two years of
current.

>I don't know about other parts of the world, but Europe changed a whole
>lot in 2006, with EUR III becoming the required standard for new bikes.
>Since then, you'd have a hard time finding a carburetted motorcycle, and
>definitely none without catalyzers.

That's Europe. Here the riders of cars and truck regularly remove the
catalytic converters. Many of the motorcyclists want to be thought of
as dangerous outlaws and breaking the law with pollution controls, and
noise is part of the "look."

>Also, there's more than just HC's (I'll concede to you they're bad, but
>CO's and NOx's aren't healthy either), and there's more cars than just
>the Prius, most of which are considerably dirtier.

I was looking for the recent article that stated that motorcycles (not
the newest) typically pollute as much as 90 cars. EVEN TWICE should
be unacceptable.

>And there's the CO2, while not directly 'dirty', does contribute to
>global warming.
>
>> from:
>> http://www.motorbiker.org/blogs.nsf/...2416MWE9J9.htm
>
>Discarded: if the fuel put into motorcycles is only around 1% of the
>total, then the CO2 emitted by those motorcycles can only be around 1%
>of the total either.

Not true at all. CO2 is produced at a much higher rate in some types
of engines that others.

>Motorcycles are not magic machines that find
>additional C atoms in the fuel.

No they are simply bad at converting fuel into clean(er) exhaust. Air
Cooled engines will be effectively banned due to Euro IV I believe. I
know BMW has numbered the days for the R series as a result.

>Reading the ADEME study, too. It said motorcycles range from good to
>bad, in relation with the effort done to clean them. Worst, not
>unexpected, are the little 50cc 2 stroke scooters without FI, catalyzers
>etc.

As you said, that's an old article using arguments from the dirtiest
engines. The fact is the CLEANEST motorcycle engines are NOT up to
standards which are coming.

>> "So the powers to be are looking at motorcycles seriously and trying
>> to see what can be done to reduce pollution. One way they are looking
>> at it, is abolish motorcycles all together. That would make many
>> politicians very happy (as reported before that Paris is studying the
>> possibility to stop motorcycles from entering their city {link}). "
>
>I'll be there next week, I'll see if I can spot a motorcycle. Last year
>there's been thousands.

I'm sure there will be. But if the government acts, there won't be.
European nations are far more likely to take steps to protect the
environment than the USA at this time, perhaps due to their past
negligence.

Norway is the FIRST nation in the world to design a PRO MOTORCYCLE
highway based on the Vision Zero concept.
========================
Classic Rider
www.2wheelclassics.com
========================

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 12:06:03 -0600, "Bob Myers"
<nospamplease@address.invalid> wrote:

>> Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles.
>
>The cleanest motorcycle of the 2001 model year, vs.
>the certification test levels of the Prius. Nice apples-
>to-watermelons comparison you've got going there.
>
>Didn't bother to look up CURRENT motorcycle
>emissions levels, did you?

Obviously you didn't bother to read the MEDICAL website evidence as
well. All the citations show motorcycles to be very high pollution.

The 100 to 1 is not the only such citation. There are of course
others at 90, and many TODAY at 15 to 25 times more pollution than
cars.

They should pollute LESS since they burn less fuel.
========================
Classic Rider
www.2wheelclassics.com
========================

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 12:16:31 -0700, Timberwoof
<timberwoof.spam@infernosoft.com> wrote:

>> http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news...Generate.shtml
>
>That's a stupid solution because the technology exists to make
>motorcycles as clean as cars. BMW and Honda already make motorcycles
>that meet those requirements ... even they don't have to meet the
>requirements. (Please forgive me for destroying the meaning of the word
>"requirement".)

Yes but ONLY BMW and HONDA make SOME models that run exceptionally
clean. They aren't doing so for the USA market, they are doing so for
China and India who are where the future growth of the industry is
going.

Don't forget for one SECOND of time that the US motorcycle is the
result of what US Dealers requested from the makers.

>> "Motorcycles typically get about double the gas mileage of even the
>> most fuel-efficient cars—but that doesn’t mean they are green. Despite
>> getting 60-70 miles per gallon, motorcycles are not subject to the
>> same rigorous emissions standards as cars and light duty trucks, even
>> though they spew up to 15 times more pollution per mile, mostly in the
>> form of smog-causing hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides.
>
>That's basically true.

Mostly except that the typical European car gets 45- 60 mpg. The US
makers would like us to NOT know this.

>> In the wake of these developments, the U.S. Environmental Protection
>> Agency (EPA) established new federal rules that require motorcycle
>> makers to reduce their products’ emissions by 50 percent. In place
>> since the beginning of the 2006 model year, these new rules are
>> expected to cut combined hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxide emissions from
>> motorcycles by about 54,000 tons a year, while also saving
>> approximately 12 million gallons of fuel annually by preventing it
>> from escaping from fuel hoses and fuel tanks.
>>
>> Many manufacturers are rising to the challenge. Honda, already a world
>> leader in the development of greener cars, is putting the finishing
>> touches on its new “idling stop system” that cuts fuel consumption and
>> exhaust emissions by turning off the engine instead of idling at stop
>> lights and in traffic jams."
>> _____________________
>> The statement about mileage is false. The highest mileage automobiles
>> average in the high 70s to 90s and achieve up to 110 mpg.
>
>Bullshit.
>http://www.autotropolis.com/wiki/ind...t_Gas_Mileage_
>Cars_for_2008
>
>You could, of course, come up with a link for your 70 mpg car and show
>that there are a lot of them out there.

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publi...nter_319.shtml

As you requested. However both VW and Opel have 1.5 liter cars in
pre-production for 2010 to 2012 introduction. These will be 150mpg
cars.

>> http://www.grist.org/advice/ask/2003...a-motorcycles/
>>
>> "motorcycle hydrocarbon burden is 90 times higher than that of the
>> typical passenger car, and a motorcycle releases 20 times more total
>> pollution per mile than a new car."

>Somewhat bullshit. Carbon dioxide is pollution, and a typical motorcycle
>consumes less gasoline and emits less carbon ddioxide permile than a
>typical car. As for the other pollutants (carbon monoxide, oxides of
>nitrogen, unburned hydrocarbons), most motorcycles are gross polluters.

Don't forget that the gases are only PART of the issue. Air cooled
engines pass a high degree of particulates which is for the most part
unburned fuel and lubricants.
========================
Classic Rider
www.2wheelclassics.com
========================

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 14:08:10 -0700 (PDT), "S'mee"
<stevenkeith2@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Funny how asshole hide their names innit?

Doesn't matter.. EVERY post to usenet groups can be traced to their
source.
========================
Classic Rider
www.2wheelclassics.com
========================

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 14:17:04 -0700 (PDT), Bob Nixon
<bigrex2005@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Ever ride behind a Honda F4i,,600RR, 929,954 or 1000RR with a pipe and
>a power commander III set for max HP? The air to fuel or ratio of
>about 10-12:1 vs (13;5 to 14:1 or perfect). It's awful or worse even
>than the pre EPA leaded gas muscle cars of the mid 60's to mid
>seventies. I'll fall back or pass one just to breath some fresh air.

I was behind some pop corn noise maker the other day. The odor from
unburned fuel was terrible. It smelled like a 1970s automobile.

>I'd estimate that they're several 100 times worse than a modern Honda
>or Toyota cage.

I'm sure of it. These tests assume too that the motorcycle is
unaltered. Too many of them are poorly maintained. The worst comes
after a few thousand miles when their is a lot more blow by the rings
and when particulates really start to climb.

>And it generally shows perticularly with Sport Honda's
>that get only mid 30's MPG for cruising gas mileage.And I'm not just
>slamming Honda either. Suzuki's, Kawasaki and Yamaha seem to need a
>PCIII less from the factory. IOW, their FI is better mapped from the
>factory, with fewer throttle response problems. My 03 Suzuki 1000K3
>got over 50MPG on the road at 80MPH or less.Now my little SV-650 is a
>different story. It's too rich with a blackened pipe tip & on the road
>at 80MPH it only gets mid 40's for fuel mileage.

As far as fuel injection in motorcycles, I'm not sure it's really
worked out as yet.

>BTW, due to their short stroke/high revs sport bikes are not notorious
>for good fuel economy. A big Harley bagger prolly can get 60MPG at
>normal highway speeds, mainly due to their longer stroke, & lower
>revving engines.

That old Classic Honda V45 750cc with 82 hp had a steady state fuel
consumption of 89mpg (I forget what speed). Those regularly exceeded
60mpg on 1980s fuel.

Actually if you want to look at an engine characteristic that is most
likely to cause pollution problems it's the compression ratio. ANY
large engine turning slowly AND producing less horsepower SHOULD
consume less fuel.

GM used to argue this to promote their large V-8s. What stops an Otto
engine from having the best fuel economy is acceleration and idle
time. Otto engines will not burn a fuel to air ratio of less than
about 8 to 1, while optimal with gasoline is 13.8 to 1. So the
engine, at idle or coasting doesn't reduce it's fuel consumption as
much as a Diesel does, which can go up to as much as 250 to 1 ratio.

That's probably part of why Diesels win the 24 hours Le Man races now,
and with only 650 hp.
========================
Classic Rider
www.2wheelclassics.com
========================

On Aug 24, 8:16*pm, Classic Rider <ClassicRi...@2wheelclassics.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 15:39:18 +0200, marc.ger...@gmail.com (Marc
>
>
>
>
>
> Gerges) wrote:
> >Classic Rider <ClassicRi...@2wheelclassics.com> wrote:
>
> >> "Consider that the cleanest motorcycles in the 2001 model year
> >> certified at a level of about 0.32 grams/mile of hydrocarbons on the
> >> Federal Test Procedure. On the exact same test procedure the Prius
> >> certified at a hydrocarbon level of 0.0024 grams/mile. The cleanest
> >> (highway) motorcycle is therefore more than 100 times dirtier than the
> >> Prius. Said another way, you could drive the Prius for more than 100
> >> miles before you got to the same hydrocarbon levels the motorcycle
> >> would emit in only 1 mile of driving."
> >> ----------------------------
> >> Now this is the CLEANEST of modern motorcycles. *Imagine what some of
> >> those old designs, especially a V-Twin with a carburetor sitting in a
> >> hot spot between cylinders is doing.
> >> ----------------------------
>
> >E-hem. This is 2001, which should be considered ancient history.
>
> Then we should mandate the scrapping of every motorcycle that is not
> up to date? *Studies seldom are produced within even two years of
> current. *
>

Then the better bring bigger guns. 8^) Or better yet they better pay
attention to how close they are to being fired...and a more docile and
motorcycle compliant person is elected. It's a well known fact around
here I am ANTI-Auto. To the point that only work vehicles and families
with MORE than three children get a auto permit. Get a hack you bums.

> Norway is the FIRST nation in the world to design a PRO MOTORCYCLE
> highway based on the Vision Zero concept.

It can not work in the states. Why you ask? Well if you have to ask
you obviously NEVER pay attention to the compleate and utter lack of
skill americans have behind the wheel not to mention their compleate
and utter inattention to a dangerous and harmful activity.

--
Keith